Life In 19x19

Ke Jie just won the 23rd Samsung cup, his 6th international title. So whilst his rating on goratings.com might not be top anymore, he's still doing a better job that those above him (Shin Jinseo, Mi Yuting, Park did win Bailing earlier this year) at winning the big events.

After his win yesterday against Chen Yaoye in the Chinese A-league and Mi Yuting's loss to Park Junghwan, Ke Jie is now #1 in China again (according to GoRatings)!

As reported by macelee elswhere on this forum, Ke Jie has just won the 4th edition of the Bailing Cup, beating South Korea's Shin Jinseo by a score of 2-0 in the finals. This is Ke Jie's 7th international title.

Also noted by macelee, Ke Jie has been winning international titles at a faster clip than the great Lee Changho:

macelee wrote:Ke Jie 's 7th international title (21 years 168 days old), beating Lee Changho's record (22 years 288 days).

IMHO, topping rankings is nice, but bringing home the hardware by beating stiff international competition is better. The wunderkind's reign continues...

Ke Jie has been winning international titles at a faster clip than the great Lee Changho:

It's obviously a matter of personal taste, but I've always disliked the use of dubious statistics in sport to show in apples & pears fashion which player of different eras was allegedly the best. This instance seems especially egregious.

I haven't checked properly but it would seem that Yi Ch'ang-ho's international title tally of 7 in the time-frame given here must include the 1st World's Strongest. If that is the case you'd have to include the TV Asia Championship, in which case Yi Ch'ang-ho was surely faster to 7.

If you exclude both (on the grounds they were not truly open), then Ke Jie's progression could seem even more impressive.

However, for me, the crunch statistic not mentioned is that there were 11 international tournaments available for Ke Jie to play in, but only 4 for Yi Ch'ang-ho in the time-frame being used (or 6 if you count the WS and TV Asia, but then he'd be the first to 7 changes).

Since I dislike these comparisons I am not arguing that Yi is better than Ke or vice versa. I am simply arguing for a more guarded use of statistics, especially where there is a risk that nationalistic overtones could be drawn in.

Were there really that fewer opportunities for Lee to win international titles than Ke as an 11 vs 4 comparison suggests? (The principle is important though, making Sakata's title haul in Japan when there were fewer titles all the more impressive) Quite a few of the titles these days are new and have only had 1 edition so far (Xinao, Tianfu) or are biennal (MLily, Bailing, Chunlan). Probably a fairer comparison would be along the lines of in the period from [age 16? / when they won their first title / something else] to age 22 there were X international events of which player won Y. https://senseis.xmp.net/?InternationalTitleStatistics would be useful.

Since start of 2015 (when Ke won his first title) to now (4 years) there are 22 events on that list (from 9 tournaments, what are John's 2 extra?), Ke won 7 or 32%. Since start of 1992 (when Lee won his first, a bit younger than Ke) to end 1995 (4 years) there were 13 events of which Lee won 3 (23%). However, to end of 1997 (thus we include Samsung and LG events which just started) so we end with Lee aged 22 like Ke almost is now there were 23 events of which Lee won 8 (35%). Pretty similar.

And for comparison Lee Sedol was a little older at 19 when he won his first international in Aug 2002. In the next 4 years there were 23 events and he won 6 (26%). Adding on the next 2 years to give him a 6 year period from his first title there were 35 events and he won 11 (31%).

Ke Jie just beat Park Junghwan in the opening game of the annual Chinese CCTV Cup, and it's one of the rare time between the two where black won. Ke looked to be trailing after the left side exchange, but Park played really conservatively after mid-game (move 150, 152, and 154 were especially criticized for having no value) and ended up losing by 1.5 points. He will still have a chance for revenge if he could beat Shibano Toramaru tomorrow.

xiayun wrote:Ke Jie just beat Park Junghwan in the opening game of the annual Chinese CCTV Cup, and it's one of the rare time between the two where black won. Ke looked to be trailing after the left side exchange, but Park played really conservatively after mid-game (move 150, 152, and 154 were especially criticized for having no value) and ended up losing by 1.5 points. He will still have a chance for revenge if he could beat Shibano Toramaru tomorrow.

Does that mean the CCTV cup is an open tournament now (Chinese tournaments being international by default might be the future...)?

Elom wrote: Does that mean the CCTV cup is an open tournament now (Chinese tournaments being international by default might be the future...)?

This is the special event held by CCTV (the Chinese national broadcaster) to celebrate the Chinese New Year, now in the 7th year. CCTV cup should be reserved to refer to the Chinese domestic tournament, whose winner and runner-up move on to play in the Asian TV Cup.

Sorry for the mixup. Yeah, this is the exhibition tournament with just 3 players that CCTV hosts for lunar new year.

Will indeed get the rematch with Park tomorrow.

xiayun wrote:Ke Jie just beat Park Junghwan in the opening game of the annual Chinese CCTV Cup, and it's one of the rare time between the two where black won. Ke looked to be trailing after the left side exchange, but Park played really conservatively after mid-game (move 150, 152, and 154 were especially criticized for having no value) and ended up losing by 1.5 points. He will still have a chance for revenge if he could beat Shibano Toramaru tomorrow.

Park Junghwan just beat Ke Jie in the final game, with Black this time. There was a large fight that spread to nearly half of the board. The story seemed to be similar to their previous game, in that Park had an advantage after capturing two stones and taking away the eyes of the bottom group. He then made some conservative moves, particulary move 103. The fighting continued and Ke regained the advantage. Ke was poised to win, but unfortunately went crazy at the end(at least according to the Chinese commentators). Ke had three stones that were reducing Black's territory; however, instead of connecting them to his group, he instead played an atari on move 226, and the three stones simply died after White cut them.
An unfortunate way to lose the game.

Ke Jie's reaction:

https://streamable.com/ghq93

Uberdude wrote:Ke Jie's reaction:

https://streamable.com/ghq93

Classic Ke Jie reaction.

Uberdude wrote:Ke Jie's reaction:

https://streamable.com/ghq93

Ha-ha, tell us how you really feel, Ke Jie, no need to suppress those emotions

The full broadcast from CCTV: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1WV6ZAxM0Y8. The ending mistake happened at 1:44:25, and in this one you could clearly hear Ke Jie saying the Chinese equivalent of f-word.