Let's see if we can catch up a little here. First off it looks like Loons called in correctly on 1986's ko threat
$$Wc $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . 1 3 . O . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . O X . . O X X X . . . . | $$ | . . . . O X . O X . X X O O O O O O . | $$ | . . . O . X 5 4 9 X X O O X X X X O . | $$ | . . . . . . 8 O 6 . O X X O . . X X X | $$ | . . O . O . . . 7 O . . O . O X . . X | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X X X . | $$ | . O X O O O O . . . . . . . X . X O X | $$ | . O X X . X X X . . . . . X . X O O O | $$ | . . X , X . . . . , O . X X X X X O X | $$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . X O O O X O X | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O O X X O O O 2 | $$ | . . O . X X X X . X . . . O X O X O O | $$ | . O O . X O O X O . . . . O X X X X O | $$ | X X O X . . . O X X . . O . O X . X O | $$ | . . X O O O . . O 0 . . . O O X . X X | $$ | X X X O X O . . . . O . . O . O X X . | $$ | . . . X X O . . . . . . . . . O X O X | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O O | $$ +---------------------------------------+
[go]$$Wc $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . 1 3 . O . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . O X . . O X X X . . . . | $$ | . . . . O X . O X . X X O O O O O O . | $$ | . . . O . X 5 4 9 X X O O X X X X O . | $$ | . . . . . . 8 O 6 . O X X O . . X X X | $$ | . . O . O . . . 7 O . . O . O X . . X | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X X X . | $$ | . O X O O O O . . . . . . . X . X O X | $$ | . O X X . X X X . . . . . X . X O O O | $$ | . . X , X . . . . , O . X X X X X O X | $$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . X O O O X O X | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O O X X O O O 2 | $$ | . . O . X X X X . X . . . O X O X O O | $$ | . O O . X O O X O . . . . O X X X X O | $$ | X X O X . . . O X X . . O . O X . X O | $$ | . . X O O O . . O 0 . . . O O X . X X | $$ | X X X O X O . . . . O . . O . O X X . | $$ | . . . X X O . . . . . . . . . O X O X | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O O | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
If , Black starts a direct ko immediately at . I think my first ko threat for Black would be .
$$Wc $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . 1 3 . O . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . O X . . O X X X . . . . | $$ | . . . . O X . O X . X X O O O O O O . | $$ | . . . O . X 5 4 . X X O O X X X X O . | $$ | . . . . . . . O 6 . O X X O . . X X X | $$ | . . O . O . . 7 8 O . . O . O X . . X | $$ | . . O X . . . 0 9 a . . . . . X X X . | $$ | . O X O O O O . . . . . . . X . X O X | $$ | . O X X . X X X . . . . . X . X O O O | $$ | . . X , X . . . . , O . X X X X X O X | $$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . X O O O X O X | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O O X X O O O 2 | $$ | . . O . X X X X . X . . . O X O X O O | $$ | . O O . X O O X O . . . . O X X X X O | $$ | X X O X . . . O X X . . O . O X . X O | $$ | . . X O O O . . O , . . . O O X . X X | $$ | X X X O X O . . . . O . . O . O X X . | $$ | . . . X X O . . . . . . . . . O X O X | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O O | $$ +---------------------------------------+
[go]$$Wc $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . 1 3 . O . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . O X . . O X X X . . . . | $$ | . . . . O X . O X . X X O O O O O O . | $$ | . . . O . X 5 4 . X X O O X X X X O . | $$ | . . . . . . . O 6 . O X X O . . X X X | $$ | . . O . O . . 7 8 O . . O . O X . . X | $$ | . . O X . . . 0 9 a . . . . . X X X . | $$ | . O X O O O O . . . . . . . X . X O X | $$ | . O X X . X X X . . . . . X . X O O O | $$ | . . X , X . . . . , O . X X X X X O X | $$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . X O O O X O X | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O O X X O O O 2 | $$ | . . O . X X X X . X . . . O X O X O O | $$ | . O O . X O O X O . . . . O X X X X O | $$ | X X O X . . . O X X . . O . O X . X O | $$ | . . X O O O . . O , . . . O O X . X X | $$ | X X X O X O . . . . O . . O . O X X . | $$ | . . . X X O . . . . . . . . . O X O X | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O O | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
So White holds back with this . Black keeps on coming and after cuts at (or "a"?). I find it hard to say what is the best way to play here or how it will all work out. However, Black definitely has a more interesting situation than in the game IMHO. Good call Loons!
Anyway Black answered the threat and White retook the ko. How about the suggestion of playing P2 as a ko threat?
$$Wc at the marked stone; above ; at :w1 $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . O X . O . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . O X . . O X X X . . . . | $$ | . . . . O X . O X . X X O O O O O O . | $$ | . . . O . X . . . X X O O X X X X O . | $$ | . . . . . . . O . . O X X O . . X X X | $$ | . . O . O . . . . O . . O . O X . . X | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X X X 1 | $$ | . O X O O O O . . . . . . . X . X O B | $$ | . O X X . X X X . . . . . X . X O O O | $$ | . . X , X . . . . , O . X X X X X O X | $$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . X O O O X O X | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O O X X O O O 5 | $$ | . . O . X X X X . X . . . O X O X O O | $$ | . O O . X O O X O . . . . O X X X X O | $$ | X X O X . . . O X X . . O . O X . X O | $$ | . . X O O O . . O , . . . O O X 3 X X | $$ | X X X O X O . . . . O . . O 8 O X X 9 | $$ | . . . X X O . . . . . . . . 2 O X O X | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O O | $$ +---------------------------------------+
[go]$$Wc at the marked stone; above ; at :w1 $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . O X . O . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . O X . . O X X X . . . . | $$ | . . . . O X . O X . X X O O O O O O . | $$ | . . . O . X . . . X X O O X X X X O . | $$ | . . . . . . . O . . O X X O . . X X X | $$ | . . O . O . . . . O . . O . O X . . X | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X X X 1 | $$ | . O X O O O O . . . . . . . X . X O B | $$ | . O X X . X X X . . . . . X . X O O O | $$ | . . X , X . . . . , O . X X X X X O X | $$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . X O O O X O X | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O O X X O O O 5 | $$ | . . O . X X X X . X . . . O X O X O O | $$ | . O O . X O O X O . . . . O X X X X O | $$ | X X O X . . . O X X . . O . O X . X O | $$ | . . X O O O . . O , . . . O O X 3 X X | $$ | X X X O X O . . . . O . . O 8 O X X 9 | $$ | . . . X X O . . . . . . . . 2 O X O X | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O O | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
Remember the earlier comment on internal ko threats? White does not connect but instead answers with . This reduces the liberties on the lower Black group and makes capturing the two Black stones inside the White group an internal ko threat for White (expanding the group's liberties). Black has to throw in and White can recapture the ko. Of course White has to be committed to ignoring any Black ko threat after . So Black has no internal ko threats and has to look elsewhere. Oops! The situation does not look good here for Black.
Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986
Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2011 12:49 am
by perceval
For the prisoner count business a neutral voice: You need a convent ion to fix if the number in black is the number of stones in black: are the stones captured by black or the nuéber of captured black stone.
It seems that the convention is that the number is the number of stones captured -- , W capture a stone but forgets to add it to the prisoners / / -- (correct) -- ?? -- (inversion) /:b69:: -- (back to normal) -- (W captures and add to the B stones captured --correct)
move / -- move 1986 switch colors to
Then robin keeps the convention at , captured 2 with stones to bring it to BUT facetiously inverted the order to which confuses the matter for -- 1986 kept the wrong b4: -- (+ 1 capture from B added to the w stones) 1986 corrects the number BUT still invert the colors to -- -- -- (+1 W capture added to the W stones which is not the convention)
So it seems that indeed robin is the one respecting the color convention
Your count should be
can t help with the ko (good luck to both its hard) but here are your prisoner count anyway
Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986
Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2011 1:19 am
by perceval
@ez4u:
Does that mean that it would be better for B to just protect at C2, removing all ko threat in the area, rather than playing a ko threat of his own ? because i B plays another ko thread, W answer, B take the ko, W play C2 he will have at least 1 more ko threat at E1 in the area. As this is an approach ko for W maybe removing 2 ko threat is better than playing 1 threat for B?
Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986
Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2011 1:25 am
by topazg
Does Black even _have_ a ko threat here?
$$Wcm180 Prisoner Count $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . O X . O . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . O X . . O X X X . . . . | $$ | . . . . O X . O X . X X O O O O O O . | $$ | . . . O . X . . . X X O O X X X X O . | $$ | . . . . . . . O . . O X X O . . X X X | $$ | . . O . O . . . . O . . O . O X . . X | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X X X 1 | $$ | . O X O O O O . . . . . . . X . X O . | $$ | . O X X . X X X . . . . . X . X O O O | $$ | . . X , X . . . . , O . X X X X X O X | $$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . X O O O X O X | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O O X X O O O . | $$ | . . O . X X X X . X . . . O X O X O O | $$ | . O O . X O O X O . . . . O X X X X O | $$ | X X O X . . . O X X . . O . O X . X O | $$ | . . X O O O . . O , . . . O O X 3 X X | $$ | X X X O X O . . . . O . . O 4 O X X 5 | $$ | . . . X X O . . . . . . . . 2 O X O X | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O O | $$ +---------------------------------------+
[go]$$Wcm180 Prisoner Count $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . O X . O . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . O X . . O X X X . . . . | $$ | . . . . O X . O X . X X O O O O O O . | $$ | . . . O . X . . . X X O O X X X X O . | $$ | . . . . . . . O . . O X X O . . X X X | $$ | . . O . O . . . . O . . O . O X . . X | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X X X 1 | $$ | . O X O O O O . . . . . . . X . X O . | $$ | . O X X . X X X . . . . . X . X O O O | $$ | . . X , X . . . . , O . X X X X X O X | $$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . X O O O X O X | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O O X X O O O . | $$ | . . O . X X X X . X . . . O X O X O O | $$ | . O O . X O O X O . . . . O X X X X O | $$ | X X O X . . . O X X . . O . O X . X O | $$ | . . X O O O . . O , . . . O O X 3 X X | $$ | X X X O X O . . . . O . . O 4 O X X 5 | $$ | . . . X X O . . . . . . . . 2 O X O X | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O O | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
I simply can't see anything White would respond to.
Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986
Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2011 1:48 am
by ez4u
perceval wrote:@ez4u:
Does that mean that it would be better for B to just protect at C2, removing all ko threat in the area, rather than playing a ko threat of his own ? because i B plays another ko thread, W answer, B take the ko, W play C2 he will have at least 1 more ko threat at E1 in the area. As this is an approach ko for W maybe removing 2 ko threat is better than playing 1 threat for B?
Actually C2 is not a threat to capture the whole corner. Read carefully!
As far as I can see, White should ignore any Black threat and play R4. That creates an internal ko threat so the ko cycles again and White captures the right side. Black effectively gets three plays in a row but I do not see how he can win.
Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986
Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2011 2:16 am
by Loons
Oops. Am I right in now thinking the C2 threat followup leads to a white-take-first approach ko for black?
$$Wcm1 $$ | . O X O O O O . . . . . . . X . X O X | $$ | . O X X . X X X . . . . . X . X O O O | $$ | . . X , X . . . . , O . X X X X X O X | $$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . X O O O X O X | $$ | 0 . . O . . . . . . . O O X X O O O . | $$ | 9 . O . X X X X . X . . . O X O X O O | $$ | 8 O O . X O O X O . . . . O X X X X O | $$ | X X O X . . . O X X . . O . O X . X O | $$ | . . X O O O . . O , . . . O O X . X X | $$ | X X X O X O . . . . O . . O . O X X . | $$ | 4 3 1 X X O . . . . . . . . . O X O X | $$ | . 6 . 5 7 . . . . . . . . . . O O O O | $$ +---------------------------------------+
[go]$$Wcm1 $$ | . O X O O O O . . . . . . . X . X O X | $$ | . O X X . X X X . . . . . X . X O O O | $$ | . . X , X . . . . , O . X X X X X O X | $$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . X O O O X O X | $$ | 0 . . O . . . . . . . O O X X O O O . | $$ | 9 . O . X X X X . X . . . O X O X O O | $$ | 8 O O . X O O X O . . . . O X X X X O | $$ | X X O X . . . O X X . . O . O X . X O | $$ | . . X O O O . . O , . . . O O X . X X | $$ | X X X O X O . . . . O . . O . O X X . | $$ | 4 3 1 X X O . . . . . . . . . O X O X | $$ | . 6 . 5 7 . . . . . . . . . . O O O O | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
$$Wcm1 $$ | . O X O O O O . . . . . . . X . X O X | $$ | . O X X . X X X . . . . . X . X O O O | $$ | . . X , X . . . . , O . X X X X X O X | $$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . X O O O X O X | $$ | X 2 6 O . . . . . . . O O X X O O O . | $$ | O 1 O . X X X X . X . . . O X O X O O | $$ | X O O . X O O X O . . . . O X X X X O | $$ | X X O X . . . O X X . . O . O X . X O | $$ | 3 4 X O O O . . O , . . . O O X . X X | $$ | X X X O . O . . . . O . . O . O X X . | $$ | X O O . . O . . . . . . . . . O X O X | $$ | . X 5 O O . . . . . . . . . . O O O O | $$ +---------------------------------------+
[go]$$Wcm1 $$ | . O X O O O O . . . . . . . X . X O X | $$ | . O X X . X X X . . . . . X . X O O O | $$ | . . X , X . . . . , O . X X X X X O X | $$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . X O O O X O X | $$ | X 2 6 O . . . . . . . O O X X O O O . | $$ | O 1 O . X X X X . X . . . O X O X O O | $$ | X O O . X O O X O . . . . O X X X X O | $$ | X X O X . . . O X X . . O . O X . X O | $$ | 3 4 X O O O . . O , . . . O O X . X X | $$ | X X X O . O . . . . O . . O . O X X . | $$ | X O O . . O . . . . . . . . . O X O X | $$ | . X 5 O O . . . . . . . . . . O O O O | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2011 2:17 am
by EdLee
To get an accurate count, post an SGF of the game up to the current move. = 7 W stones = ( ) in robin's lid. = 3 B stones = ( ) in 1986's lid.
Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986
Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2011 2:19 am
by topazg
Loons, why in your first dia?
Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986
Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2011 2:21 am
by Loons
Because I clearly need to do more easy tsumego.
Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986
Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2011 1:17 pm
by robinz
1986: apologies, I thougt you understood the convention normally used here on L19; represents 2 white stones as prisoners, and so on. Doing it this way is supposed to eliminate ambiguity, apparently
EdLee: I am keeping an SGF version of the game to analyse on, and can assure you that the prisoner numbers I have been posting have been correct at all times. (The time I inverted the order of colours was not "facetious", as perceval says - although I don't take this as a slight and appreciate your post - it was simply a random choice when I realised that 1986 had changed the count. I didn't bother to check the order they were in before.) If there is any dispute I am happy to post my SGF, but I believe 1986 agrees with me, since our differences are only in the colour, which it now turns out is to do with how we are interpreting the notation.
I will continue for now using the usual L19 convention as given by Ed, but if my opponent objects I will happily change (after all, it doesn't really matter ).
Oh, and @Loons, I'm glad that if I ever get to your level (which I rate as unlikely), this will be classed as an "easy tsumego" (Yes, I realise, you probably are talking about some hypothetical problem many moves in the future, but even so - I admit I'm pretty lost here...)
$$Bcm181 Prisoner Count $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . 1 . X . O . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . O X . . O X X X . . . . | $$ | . . . . O X . O X . X X O O O O O O . | $$ | . . . O . X . . . X X O O X X X X O . | $$ | . . . . . . . O . . O X X O . . X X X | $$ | . . O . O . . . . O . . O . O X . . X | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X X X O | $$ | . O X O O O O . . . . . . . X . X O . | $$ | . O X X . X X X . . . . . X . X O O O | $$ | . . X , X . . . . , O . X X X X X O X | $$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . X O O O X O X | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O O X X O O O . | $$ | . . O . X X X X . X . . . O X O X O O | $$ | . O O . X O O X O . . . . O X X X X O | $$ | X X O X . . . O X X . . O . O X . X O | $$ | . . X O O O . . O , . . . O O X . X X | $$ | X X X O X O . . . . O . . O . O X X . | $$ | . . . X X O . . . . . . . . . O X O X | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O O | $$ +---------------------------------------+
[go]$$Bcm181 Prisoner Count $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . 1 . X . O . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . O X . . O X X X . . . . | $$ | . . . . O X . O X . X X O O O O O O . | $$ | . . . O . X . . . X X O O X X X X O . | $$ | . . . . . . . O . . O X X O . . X X X | $$ | . . O . O . . . . O . . O . O X . . X | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X X X O | $$ | . O X O O O O . . . . . . . X . X O . | $$ | . O X X . X X X . . . . . X . X O O O | $$ | . . X , X . . . . , O . X X X X X O X | $$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . X O O O X O X | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O O X X O O O . | $$ | . . O . X X X X . X . . . O X O X O O | $$ | . O O . X O O X O . . . . O X X X X O | $$ | X X O X . . . O X X . . O . O X . X O | $$ | . . X O O O . . O , . . . O O X . X X | $$ | X X X O X O . . . . O . . O . O X X . | $$ | . . . X X O . . . . . . . . . O X O X | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O O | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
Well, as I just said, in unhidden text no less, I feel way out of my depth here. But I think this simple capture is best. If white continues taking away my liberties in the lower right, I can win the ko, and in compensation for losing something somewhere to a ko threat, I can play G18 and create some fun interestingness. If he simply responds on top instead, then I think I will have gained a move and will be able to respond to one more of his ko threats than I would have been able to before.
Glad to see that we're now again attracting some stronger players as I no doubt go down in a blaze of not-quite-glory
Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986
Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2011 4:51 pm
by 1986
So I got the colors switched cool cool cool. I'm ready when u are!
Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986
Posted: Fri Jul 01, 2011 10:02 am
by robinz
Whoops, I made my move last night, but somehow managed to put it inside the hide tags with the comments Let's try again:
$$Bcm181 Prisoner Count $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . 1 . X . O . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . O X . . O X X X . . . . | $$ | . . . . O X . O X . X X O O O O O O . | $$ | . . . O . X . . . X X O O X X X X O . | $$ | . . . . . . . O . . O X X O . . X X X | $$ | . . O . O . . . . O . . O . O X . . X | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X X X O | $$ | . O X O O O O . . . . . . . X . X O . | $$ | . O X X . X X X . . . . . X . X O O O | $$ | . . X , X . . . . , O . X X X X X O X | $$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . X O O O X O X | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O O X X O O O . | $$ | . . O . X X X X . X . . . O X O X O O | $$ | . O O . X O O X O . . . . O X X X X O | $$ | X X O X . . . O X X . . O . O X . X O | $$ | . . X O O O . . O , . . . O O X . X X | $$ | X X X O X O . . . . O . . O . O X X . | $$ | . . . X X O . . . . . . . . . O X O X | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O O | $$ +---------------------------------------+
[go]$$Bcm181 Prisoner Count $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . 1 . X . O . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . O X . . O X X X . . . . | $$ | . . . . O X . O X . X X O O O O O O . | $$ | . . . O . X . . . X X O O X X X X O . | $$ | . . . . . . . O . . O X X O . . X X X | $$ | . . O . O . . . . O . . O . O X . . X | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X X X O | $$ | . O X O O O O . . . . . . . X . X O . | $$ | . O X X . X X X . . . . . X . X O O O | $$ | . . X , X . . . . , O . X X X X X O X | $$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . X O O O X O X | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O O X X O O O . | $$ | . . O . X X X X . X . . . O X O X O O | $$ | . O O . X O O X O . . . . O X X X X O | $$ | X X O X . . . O X X . . O . O X . X O | $$ | . . X O O O . . O , . . . O O X . X X | $$ | X X X O X O . . . . O . . O . O X X . | $$ | . . . X X O . . . . . . . . . O X O X | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O O | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986
Posted: Sun Jul 03, 2011 10:33 am
by 1986
$$Wcm182 Prisoner Count $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . X . X . O . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . O X . . O X X X . . . . | $$ | . . . . O X . O X . X X O O O O O O . | $$ | . . . O . X . . . X X O O X X X X O . | $$ | . . . . . . . O . . O X X O . . X X X | $$ | . . O . O . . . . O . . O . O X . . X | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X X X O | $$ | . O X O O O O . . . . . . . X . X O . | $$ | . O X X . X X X . . . . . X . X O O O | $$ | . . X , X . . . . , O . X X X X X O X | $$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . X O O O X O X | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O O X X O O O . | $$ | . . O . X X X X . X . . . O X O X O O | $$ | . O O . X O O X O . . . . O X X X X O | $$ | X X O X . . . O X X . . O . O X . X O | $$ | . . X O O O . . O , . . . O O X 1 X X | $$ | X X X O X O . . . . O . . O . O X X . | $$ | . . . X X O . . . . . . . . . O X O X | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O O | $$ +---------------------------------------+
[go]$$Wcm182 Prisoner Count $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . X . X . O . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . O X . . O X X X . . . . | $$ | . . . . O X . O X . X X O O O O O O . | $$ | . . . O . X . . . X X O O X X X X O . | $$ | . . . . . . . O . . O X X O . . X X X | $$ | . . O . O . . . . O . . O . O X . . X | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X X X O | $$ | . O X O O O O . . . . . . . X . X O . | $$ | . O X X . X X X . . . . . X . X O O O | $$ | . . X , X . . . . , O . X X X X X O X | $$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . X O O O X O X | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O O X X O O O . | $$ | . . O . X X X X . X . . . O X O X O O | $$ | . O O . X O O X O . . . . O X X X X O | $$ | X X O X . . . O X X . . O . O X . X O | $$ | . . X O O O . . O , . . . O O X 1 X X | $$ | X X X O X O . . . . O . . O . O X X . | $$ | . . . X X O . . . . . . . . . O X O X | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O O | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
I'm going in for the kill, this makes the ko fight more intense, my best best for a don't ignore ko threat i think is c2
Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986
Posted: Sun Jul 03, 2011 1:45 pm
by robinz
$$Bcm183 Prisoner Count $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . X . X . O . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . O X . . O X X X . . . . | $$ | . . . . O X . O X . X X O O O O O O . | $$ | . . . O . X . . . X X O O X X X X O . | $$ | . . . . . . . O . . O X X O . . X X X | $$ | . . O . O . . . . O . . O . O X . . X | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X X X . | $$ | . O X O O O O . . . . . . . X . X O 1 | $$ | . O X X . X X X . . . . . X . X O O O | $$ | . . X , X . . . . , O . X X X X X O X | $$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . X O O O X O X | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O O X X O O O . | $$ | . . O . X X X X . X . . . O X O X O O | $$ | . O O . X O O X O . . . . O X X X X O | $$ | X X O X . . . O X X . . O . O X . X O | $$ | . . X O O O . . O , . . . O O X O X X | $$ | X X X O X O . . . . O . . O . O X X . | $$ | . . . X X O . . . . . . . . . O X O X | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O O | $$ +---------------------------------------+
[go]$$Bcm183 Prisoner Count $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . X . X . O . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . O X . . O X X X . . . . | $$ | . . . . O X . O X . X X O O O O O O . | $$ | . . . O . X . . . X X O O X X X X O . | $$ | . . . . . . . O . . O X X O . . X X X | $$ | . . O . O . . . . O . . O . O X . . X | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X X X . | $$ | . O X O O O O . . . . . . . X . X O 1 | $$ | . O X X . X X X . . . . . X . X O O O | $$ | . . X , X . . . . , O . X X X X X O X | $$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . X O O O X O X | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O O X X O O O . | $$ | . . O . X X X X . X . . . O X O X O O | $$ | . O O . X O O X O . . . . O X X X X O | $$ | X X O X . . . O X X . . O . O X . X O | $$ | . . X O O O . . O , . . . O O X O X X | $$ | X X X O X O . . . . O . . O . O X X . | $$ | . . . X X O . . . . . . . . . O X O X | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O O | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
Hmm, although that's an entirely obvious response, I've only just realised what it means - that I'm actually going to lose this capturing race White will play the local ko threat of T8, capturing the two stones. I must remove one of the two liberties in the eye, then white retakes the ko. I can't retake, and whatever I play white will play T3 and capture me next move. On the plus side, this will give me two moves elsewhere, with which I can hope to do some damage (for example, atariing L15, then capturing it, and using the move after I lose the semeai to kill white's corner), but it's unlikely to make up for 80-odd points lost in this fight But I'll see what I can get out of this, and reassess when the dust has settled.
Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986
Posted: Sun Jul 03, 2011 4:07 pm
by 1986
$$Wcm184 Prisoner Count $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . X . X . O . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . O X . . O X X X . . . . | $$ | . . . . O X . O X . X X O O O O O O . | $$ | . . . O . X . . . X X O O X X X X O . | $$ | . . . . . . . O . . O X X O . . X X X | $$ | . . O . O . . . . O . . O . O X . . X | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X X X . | $$ | . O X O O O O . . . . . . . X . X O X | $$ | . O X X . X X X . . . . . X . X O O O | $$ | . . X , X . . . . , O . X X X X X O . | $$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . X O O O X O . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O O X X O O O 1 | $$ | . . O . X X X X . X . . . O X O X O O | $$ | . O O . X O O X O . . . . O X X X X O | $$ | X X O X . . . O X X . . O . O X . X O | $$ | . . X O O O . . O , . . . O O X O X X | $$ | X X X O X O . . . . O . . O . O X X . | $$ | . . . X X O . . . . . . . . . O X O X | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O O | $$ +---------------------------------------+
[go]$$Wcm184 Prisoner Count $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . X . X . O . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . O X . . O X X X . . . . | $$ | . . . . O X . O X . X X O O O O O O . | $$ | . . . O . X . . . X X O O X X X X O . | $$ | . . . . . . . O . . O X X O . . X X X | $$ | . . O . O . . . . O . . O . O X . . X | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X X X . | $$ | . O X O O O O . . . . . . . X . X O X | $$ | . O X X . X X X . . . . . X . X O O O | $$ | . . X , X . . . . , O . X X X X X O . | $$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . X O O O X O . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O O X X O O O 1 | $$ | . . O . X X X X . X . . . O X O X O O | $$ | . O O . X O O X O . . . . O X X X X O | $$ | X X O X . . . O X X . . O . O X . X O | $$ | . . X O O O . . O , . . . O O X O X X | $$ | X X X O X O . . . . O . . O . O X X . | $$ | . . . X X O . . . . . . . . . O X O X | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O O | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
OK, continue on with the plan he has to do something worthwhile for me not to continue on with the kill, he might just play atrai again at t9 or 10 then i will just retake ko and go
, Black starts a direct ko immediately at 
. I think my first ko threat for Black would be 
.
cuts at 
with 
. This reduces the liberties on the lower Black group and makes capturing the two Black stones inside the White group an internal ko threat for White (expanding the group's liberties). Black has to throw in and White can recapture the ko. Of course White has to be committed to ignoring any Black ko threat after 
at the marked stone; 
above 
; 
are the stones captured by black or the nuéber of captured black stone.
-- 
, W capture a stone but forgets to add it to the prisoners
/ 
/ 
-- 
(correct)
-- 
/:b69:: -- 
-- 
/ 
-- 
1986 switch colors to 
, captured 2 with stones to bring it to 
-- 1986 kept the wrong b4: 
-- 
-- 
-- 
-- 
(Yes, I realise, you probably are talking about some hypothetical problem many moves in the future, but even so - I admit I'm pretty lost here...)
White will play the local ko threat of T8, capturing the two stones. I must remove one of the two liberties in the eye, then white retakes the ko. I can't retake, and whatever I play white will play T3 and capture me next move. On the plus side, this will give me two moves elsewhere, with which I can hope to do some damage (for example, atariing L15, then capturing it, and using the move after I lose the semeai to kill white's corner), but it's unlikely to make up for 80-odd points lost in this fight 