OCA's log

ez4u · **#321**

oca wrote:

Hi Amelia, thanks a lot for your comments :tmbup:

Hi Edlee, I can see that :w24:

is the same as :b53:

in post 310, both games where played in a row, so I didn't saw your comments before playing that game.
That said, I played yesterday another game which also went to crosscut at :b87:

. I still choosed to atari at :w90:

(after exchanging :w88:

for

).
I wonder if that was correct to atari this time or if extending (at 'a' ?) would be better in that position too.

So here is the sequence :

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm87 $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . X O . . O X X O . X O X . . | $$ | . 3 X . X O O . . O X O O O O X . X . | $$ | . 2 . X . O . . . O O X X X O O X X . | $$ | . . . X O a . . . . X . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O O 1 . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . X X X O X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O O O O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X . X X O O O O . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . X . . . X . X . . . | $$ | . . . , . . O . O O X X . X . X . X . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . O O O O . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

...

What was your plan if Black played 89 at 90?

Sennahoj · **#322**

oca wrote:

Here is an example of a move ( :b2:

) in a joseki that I don't understand :

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W what's the purpose of ?\nwhy not directly ?\nor even at ? $$ +-------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . 2 . . . . . $$ | . . O . O X . . . . $$ | . O O X 1 X . 4 . , $$ | . . X O O 3 . . . . $$ | . X . X . . . . . . $$ | . . X . . . . . . . $$ | . . X . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . , . . . . . ,[/go]

If you play :b2:

at

, you're pushing from behind + EdLee will come get you

. I think the meaning of :b2:

instead of directly :b4:

is that if white doesn't respond in the corner, there is a chance that white can be attacked later:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ +-------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . 3 . 1 X . . . . . $$ | . . O 2 O X . . . . $$ | . O O X O X . X . , $$ | . . X O O O . . . . $$ | . X . X . . . . . . $$ | . . X . . . . . . . $$ | . . X . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . , . . . . . ,[/go]

Actually I think black can make the exchange directly before extending. Then we see that :b1:

really has a lot of impact on the strength of the two groups --- black is a lot stronger compared with directly extending at :b5:

, and white is not completely alive yet because of the weakness at the 2-2 point.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ +-------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . 3 1 . . . . . $$ | . . O 4 O X . . . . $$ | . O O X O X . 5 . , $$ | . . X O O 2 . . . . $$ | . X . X . . . . . . $$ | . . X . . . . . . . $$ | . . X . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . , . . . . . ,[/go]

EdLee · **#323**

Sennahoj wrote:

If you play :b2:

at

, you're pushing from behind + EdLee will come get you

.

Hi oca,

Many people -- even some dan level amateurs --
are confused or trapped by this, so here's more info:

oca · **#324**

ez4u wrote:

oca wrote:

Hi Amelia, thanks a lot for your comments :tmbup:

What was your plan if Black played 89 at 90?

Hi ez4u,

Well, in that case, the plan would be that 90, I suppose I can live, but maybe this will give black too much influence...

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm87 $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . X O . . O X X O . X O X . . | $$ | . . X . X O O . . O X O O O O X . X . | $$ | . 2 . X . O . . . O O X X X O O X X . | $$ | . . . X O a . . . . X . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O O 1 . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 4 . . . . . . . . . X . X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . X X X O X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O O O O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X . X X O O O O . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . X . . . X . X . . . | $$ | . . . , . . O . O O X X . X . X . X . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . O O O O . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

EdLee · **#325**

oca wrote:

but maybe this will give black too much influence...

Hi oca,

Uberdude · **#326**

oca wrote:

Here is an example of a move ( :b2:

) in a joseki that I don't understand :

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W what's the purpose of ?\nwhy not directly ?\nor even at ? $$ +-------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . a 2 . . . . . $$ | . . O . O X . . . . $$ | . O O X 1 X . 4 . , $$ | . . X O O 3 . . . . $$ | . X . X . . . . . . $$ | . . X . . . . . . . $$ | . . X . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . , . . . . . ,[/go]

Well that sequence you showed isn't the normal joseki, normally white blocks 2 at a, and as Sennahoj said if white doesn't but plays your 3 instead (which is another, albeit rarer, choice to avoid getting sealed in in exchange for taking a loss territorially) then black should extend at a first in sente before jumping with 4.

So the next question is why is 2 good if white answers normally. The reason should become clear if we look at the continuation of black sealing with 4. If white now pushes out and cuts then black gets an atari at 8 in sente to make a strong wall due to the 2-3 exchange taking a liberty from white. White can then capture some stones with b, but black has a nice strong wall (for example the cut at c can be captured with a net).

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W what's the purpose of ? $$ +-------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . 3 2 . . . . . $$ | . . O 9 O X b . . . $$ | . O O X O X 7 . . , $$ | . . X O O 5 6 0 . . $$ | . X . X 8 4 c . . . $$ | . . X . . . . . . . $$ | . . X . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . , . . . . . ,[/go]

What if black didn't play 2?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W without it $$ +-------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . O . O X 7 . . . $$ | . O O X O X 5 . . , $$ | . . X O O 3 4 6 . . $$ | . X . X a 2 b . . . $$ | . . X . . . . . . . $$ | . . X . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . , . . . . . ,[/go]

Now black has a weakness at a/b. This result is unconditionally worse than before. The only good thing about this variation is white doesn't have the choice of ignoring the 2 move in the corner to avoid being sealed in, but that's not usually a good choice (and this seal is not such a strong seal).

In fact it could be even worse for black, white now has the choice to fight like this (next a or b). This would be impossible if black had the x-y exchange because white would be in atari.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W fight $$ +-------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . y x . . . . . $$ | . . O . O X . . . . $$ | . O O X O X 0 b . , $$ | . . X O O 3 4 9 . . $$ | . X . X 5 2 7 a . . $$ | . . X . 6 8 . . . . $$ | . . X . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . , . . . . . ,[/go]

oca · **#327**

Quote:

1. When starting a fight, read at least the next two moves
2. when a basic move works, why try something fancy
3. read the ladder
4. avoid self cutting sequences (aka small gaps)
5. cure atari blindness (by paying attention when the board is crowded with stones)
6. Is the move a self atari
7. Can the opponent directly kill the whole group right after my play
8. can my opponent "broke my shape"
9. Is there a very painful cut
10. Is the move too small or too slow
11. if invading, does the invasion have a single chance to succed ? or is it dead from start...
12. does the move looks strange ? would I be surprised to see that move in a book ?

I did a few try with my list, I mean printed one, that I can keep with me while plying...
And I must say that it is very hard for me to keep focused on the list while playing.
I will try to simplify the list a bit...

So the new list is now :

1. IMMEDIATE DEATH
2. PAINFUL CUT
3. BROKEN SHAPE
4. FANCY MOVE
5. SLOW or SMALL MOVE

I hope I can stay focused on each move with that shorter list...

EdLee · **#328**

oca wrote:

it is very hard for me to keep focused on the list while playing.

Hi oca,

Of course it is, for now.
Lists like this are merely the learning wheels when you first learn the bicycle.
Eventually, you get rid of them.

As you progress, you'll create and add more lists of your own.

Once you've digested (internalized) them,
once they've become part of your subconscious,
as natural as your breathing, then you get rid of them.

tentano · **#329**

It becomes a lot easier to keep track of things.

For example, I usually don't have to consciously remind myself of a potential self-atari or ladder. It got semi-automatic.

Sometimes, though ...

EdLee · **#330**

tentano wrote:

I usually don't have to consciously remind myself of a potential self-atari

Sometimes, though ...

To err is human.

oca · **#331**

EdLee wrote:

oca wrote:

it is very hard for me to keep focused on the list while playing.

Hi oca,

Of course it is, for now.
Lists like this are merely learning wheels when you first learn the bicycle.
Eventually, you get rid of them.

As you progress, you'll create and add more lists of your own.

Once you've digested (internalized) them,
once they've become part of your subconscious,
as natural as your breathing, then you get rid of them.

for now that's a very weird feeling, because I can put tons of other things on the list but as I have no need to go fast, I really would like to take all the time I need to improve the basic first.

something else now, a new game that opposed My son 6 yo (black) vs My daugther 8 yo

They played on a real gogan, and I recorded the game on my iphone while they where playing.

Unfortunatly, The game stopped at move 44, I would say with some exitation from both side... because my son didn't know what to do, he didn't see that he can cature the two stones... well, just like me :lol:

So the end of game (from :b45:

) is just me showing what happend if black plays :b45:

at B9 instead of caturing the two stones directly.

My daughter really like first line moves like 8 or 10
sometimes, I let her place handicap stones where she want, and she like to place them on first line...
maybe that's tied to a sentiment of security... I don't know...

I like the miror start of the game, and some move are really funny like 23

[edit] I was also impressed my son played 19 and 21...[/edit]

That's really interesting as I can see my own default[edit]s

[/edit] through their game...

EdLee · **#332**

oca wrote:

I can see my own faults through their game...

Yes, a very common experience.

Parents and teachers (say, martial arts) will see in their children and students all their own bad habits. :mrgreen:

oca · **#333**

oh

faults, not defaults... my english is like my go ;-)

... thanks Edlee

oca · **#334**

I justed printed the new list, ready to go playing on IGS again... I will post the result after the game...

tentano · **#335**

9dan self-atari is impressive.

I bet he wanted to disappear instantly, without a trace.

oca · **#336**

oca wrote:

I justed printed the new list, ready to go playing on IGS again... I will post the result after the game...

Finally found 5 minutes to post the two games I played with my short list

1. IMMEDIATE DEATH
2. PAINFUL CUT
3. BROKEN SHAPE
4. FANCY MOVE
5. SLOW or SMALL MOVE

Game #1 - Lose

[edit]Fixed the file, I put the wrong one... and the end was not complete[/edit]

Game #2 Won by 0.5 points :cool:

(luckily as 249 at T11 would have killed my group...but I also missed :w98:

... so... )

Any comments welcome !

oca · **#337**

houps, Fixed game #1 as I put the wrong file and the end of the game was not complete...

Amelia · **#338**

About game 2:
22: I think I would have jumped in the corner here, to ruin some of that side territory. Maybe that gives black too much thickness? But running seems painful because black is already pretty strong here.
Maybe that means 16 was too far away. It may have been too thin considering black was already strong on the right side. You'd have had less trouble with L3. If later black invades the bottom, you're the one who may well get an opportunity to make his group weak and attack it.

24: If you're going to run, you've got to run. My gut feeling is another one point jump here, to stay ahead.
Because:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$ $$ . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . 3 . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . 1 . X . . . | $$ . . . . . . 2 O . . . . . | $$ . . . . . X . O . . . . . | $$ . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ . . O . . X . O . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ --------------------------[/go]

Surrounded with no eye space. That's painful. To get out of that you'd have to cut off and kill the two black stones on the left, or maybe the hoshi stone.
Edit: of course this might not be the best way to surround your stones. A stronger player could tell. But I wouldn't look forward to this as white. If you fail you'll lose quite a lot.
I think this is a better bet:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . 1 . X . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . X . O . . . . . | $$ . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ . . O . . X . O . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ --------------------------[/go]

oca · **#339**

Amelia wrote:

About game 2:
...
22: I think I would have jumped in the corner here
...
Maybe that means 16 was too far away. ...

Hi Amelia, thnaks for your comments, :w16:

was a try at a SmallChineseFuseki, but that's not a situation I'm used to :-?

, I really don't know if uning in the center was good or not... at least I tried not to change my plan and getting nothing at all... but maybe :w22:

in the corner would have been better...

Uberdude · **#340**

Whether to jump to the centre or dodge to the corner is not so simple. Using my advice here viewtopic.php?p=157576#p157576 it would say don't jump because black has already defended on the corner side so he can jump with the pincer stone. But you have l3 so his pincer stone is also a weak group, like your running group. Which is weaker? Hard to say. Also his corner move at q7 isn't the solid one space jump so there is some thinness you may be able to take advantage of later, but also your o7 jump (better than nobi you played as Amelia suggested) doesn't have such an obvious followup at q8 now. 3-3 is certainly easier...

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