With the biggest open area being ready for severe pressure, I think Black is not that far behind. Of course Black may have to defend against a cut in the upper right. White's stones cooperate well and he's fairly strong all over the place. Black too, but he has perhaps omitted to apply the right amount of pressure in the opening, gradually losing the benefit of moving first.Bill Spight wrote:Well, I would probably have played the double approach before this position, but I am interested in this position because I think that it is a good position for formulating a game plan.Fedya wrote:So what you're saying is that I should have played F3 here instead of several moves later?
IMO, White has the lead now and Black never caught up.Black and White are even on the right. Black's position on the left is open, but that's canceled out by White's being open on the bottom. White is probably slightly ahead thanks to the top, but Black has sente and can enter into White's open moyo first.Fedya, how do you assess this position?
Each side has weaknesses. How do you assess them?
And how do you think that White got ahead?
What do I have to do just to get to 5k?
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Knotwilg
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Re: What do I have to do just to get to 5k?
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Fedya
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Re: What do I have to do just to get to 5k?
As I said, every time I tried to count I seemed slightly behind and could never figure out a way to catch up.IMO, White has the lead now and Black never caught up.
White has open frameworks on both the top and the bottom that Black can invade. Either the double approach at F3, or some places at the top, like G17 or M16. Black obviously has an open framework on the side, but defending it right now would be passive and slow.Each side has weaknesses. How do you assess them?
Ed Lee mentioned P14, which really should have been around O17 or P17. I think I also got behind by not playing a pincer attack when White approached in the top left.And how do you think that White got ahead?
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Bill Spight
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Re: What do I have to do just to get to 5k?
I think that Black dropped the ball withFedya wrote:Ed Lee mentioned P14, which really should have been around O17 or P17. I think I also got behind by not playing a pincer attack when White approached in the top left.And how do you think that White got ahead?
.If you don't play the jump, where do you play?
Each side has weaknesses. How do you assess them?
How might you exploit White's weaknesses? You did invade at G-17 and make the double approach at F-03 later in the game, but you did not play the pincer at M-16. Does any other move come to mind (aside from your actual play)? Play around with the positions and try out some variations. What conclusions do you draw?Fedya wrote:White has open frameworks on both the top and the bottom that Black can invade. Either the double approach at F3, or some places at the top, like G17 or M16. Black obviously has an open framework on the side, but defending it right now would be passive and slow.
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.
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Gotraskhalana
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Re: What do I have to do just to get to 5k?
They probably will come up after you study them. After I learned about the L-group I L-ified my opponent's stone in many 9x9-games.Fedya wrote: You're right that I need to study the L-group and J-group more. Surprisingly, they don't seem to come up all that often in my games, so on the rare occasions they do come up I feel like I'm trying to solve it from the beginning again.
Similarly, I did some exercices on the L+3 side group (which is a critical 2-space notcher). In my next (19x19) game I saw "hey, I can live here by making an L+3-group".
Right now, I have learned about the carpenter's square without liberties and am waiting for it to come up (or I will look up which josekis are susceptible to make it come up).
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Fedya
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Re: What do I have to do just to get to 5k?
Bill Spight wrote:I think that Black dropped the ball withFedya wrote:Ed Lee mentioned P14, which really should have been around O17 or P17. I think I also got behind by not playing a pincer attack when White approached in the top left.And how do you think that White got ahead?
If you don't play the jump, where do you play?
was a mistake? I thought I was playing a good move, expanding my group and making it safer, while setting the state to put pressure on the white group above. After all, White had to respond with Q12, which I thought was rather small.I guess I should have played immediate at R12?
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Bill Spight
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Re: What do I have to do just to get to 5k?
It gives White a base, and threatens to approach the top right corner.Fedya wrote:Bill Spight wrote:I think that Black dropped the ball with
If you don't play the jump, where do you play?
That's the threat of R-16, isn't it?I guess I should have played immediate at R12?
Also, weakening White strengthens Black in that region.How would you feel as White?
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.
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Fedya
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Re: What do I have to do just to get to 5k?
Wouldn't you know I'd have the chance to play a splitting attack like that in my game today? And wouldn't you know it didn't work out anything like Bill's post implies it should? Meanwhile, my opponent plays a splitting attack against my Kobayashi fuseki, and gets a good position out of it.
I think F16 should have been at E16, but that's about the only tactical mistake I can find. I guess my mistakes were strategic, picking risky pincer attacks instead of going for sure territory. And playing the wedge on the left side.
(Oh, and it's tough to keep a positive attitude when the game is clearly lost 70 moves in.)
I think F16 should have been at E16, but that's about the only tactical mistake I can find. I guess my mistakes were strategic, picking risky pincer attacks instead of going for sure territory. And playing the wedge on the left side.
(Oh, and it's tough to keep a positive attitude when the game is clearly lost 70 moves in.)
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Shaddy
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Re: What do I have to do just to get to 5k?
splitting attack is effective in bill's diagram because both of white stones are weak. in your game only one of your opponent's stones was weak.
with regards to the bottom, 39 is REALLY BAD. it's REALLY BAD.
with regards to the bottom, 39 is REALLY BAD. it's REALLY BAD.
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Kirby
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Re: What do I have to do just to get to 5k?
Instead of H2, I like M3 - you should keep that area. Once white breaks in and lives, your influence is useless.
Even before that, instead of G4, maybe play h4. You are strong on bottom so you need to get a good result in that area.
Even before that, instead of G4, maybe play h4. You are strong on bottom so you need to get a good result in that area.
be immersed
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EdLee
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variation. After the cross cut ( 
R4, 
Q4 ), 
atari is S3.One joseki continuation:
Maybe R7 better ?
Shape problem at Q8. ( Related to at R7, maybe. )
H3, M3 possible invasion points. ( Not sure about the timing. )
Impossible (re: Shaddy). Toothpaste.Locally, L5 atari is natural. Have to watch out for weakness at P6.
Gote.
W should tenuki. ( Maybe J8, etc. )-
Fedya
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Re: What do I have to do just to get to 5k?
I was going to post this morning except that the boards were down, but obviously you want me to play the other atari and keep White confined to the bottom?with regards to the bottom, 39 is REALLY BAD. it's REALLY BAD.
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Fedya
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Re: What do I have to do just to get to 5k?
I couldn't see a way to kill White. And needless to say, I was none to pleased at how little I got (again) from influence.Kirby wrote:Instead of H2, I like M3 - you should keep that area. Once white breaks in and lives, your influence is useless.
Even before that, instead of G4, maybe play h4. You are strong on bottom so you need to get a good result in that area.[/quote]
Doesn't that put pressure on the F3 stone?
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Fedya
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Re: What do I have to do just to get to 5k?
EdLee:
Give me time to try to figure out what makes your joseki suggestion better than the variation I included in the game. I still have a lot of difficulty seeing why some joseki are better than others.
Give me time to try to figure out what makes your joseki suggestion better than the variation I included in the game. I still have a lot of difficulty seeing why some joseki are better than others.
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Kirby
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Re: What do I have to do just to get to 5k?
I think the M3 area is more important than the F3 stone, given the stones you already have in the area. Besides, you can do 3-3 later, anyway.Fedya wrote:I couldn't see a way to kill White. And needless to say, I was none to pleased at how little I got (again) from influence.Kirby wrote:Instead of H2, I like M3 - you should keep that area. Once white breaks in and lives, your influence is useless.
Doesn't that put pressure on the F3 stone?Even before that, instead of G4, maybe play h4. You are strong on bottom so you need to get a good result in that area.
Attaching with H4 in this kind of shape is a common pattern. Not always correct, but often worth considering.
be immersed
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EdLee
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