These diagrams are wrong. Exercise: why?EdLee wrote:Yes; please join the club.I still have a lot of difficulty seeing why some joseki are better than others.
What do I have to do just to get to 5k?
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Shaddy
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Re:
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Shaddy
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Re: What do I have to do just to get to 5k?
By the way, you have correctly identified that H3 is the weak point of the bottom moyo - and it needs a defense earlier. I would have played the F5 jump instead of taking the top side.
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Bill Spight
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Re: What do I have to do just to get to 5k?
Some comments on the last game. 
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.
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Fedya
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Re: What do I have to do just to get to 5k?
So you're saying I should have played F5 instead of G4, or even Kirby's suggestion of H4? One of the ladders is, I think, in Black's favor.
I was looking through Attack and Defense again, and it recommends G4 and H4, although you have to know which one is appropriate when. That last concept is obviously something I'm still working on.
I was looking through Attack and Defense again, and it recommends G4 and H4, although you have to know which one is appropriate when. That last concept is obviously something I'm still working on.
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Kirby
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Fedya
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Re: What do I have to do just to get to 5k?
The top side looked so open, and I couldn't let White get away with taking all that territory.
And Bill mentions "topping the tree" again, yet it's something I find it difficult to spot during the game.
And Bill mentions "topping the tree" again, yet it's something I find it difficult to spot during the game.
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ez4u
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Re: What do I have to do just to get to 5k?
The diagonal play is the fundamental joseki here (without the marked stone on the board).
This resistance is stronger but, again, Black has resources even without the marked stone.
With the marked stone, Black probably keeps it simple with 4.
Without the marked stone, Black breaks out like this.
Of course I forgot it a couple of months ago in a teaching game against a pro, who gently reminded me that my choice (pushing straight up like in the game) is a heavy play and a mistake. 
Dave Sigaty
"Short-lived are both the praiser and the praised, and rememberer and the remembered..."
- Marcus Aurelius; Meditations, VIII 21
"Short-lived are both the praiser and the praised, and rememberer and the remembered..."
- Marcus Aurelius; Meditations, VIII 21
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Fedya
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Re: What do I have to do just to get to 5k?
I mentioned a few weeks back that I had challenged a 2d on the DGS ladder, and was predictably losing. I was going to post the game along with the moves that I thought I got right, but decided to change that after my opponent asked me a few moves before I resigned if I'd like a review. So I'm posting the game with a lot of his comments as well as some of mine.
This is an interesting game because it has quite a few parallels to the last one I posted. Once again I seem to find exactly the wrong joseki to play in any given situation and once again, my opponent invaded my Kobayashi formation and I was unable to figure out how to deal with it properly. This caused things to spiral out of control very quickly. Also, my opponents' invasions work, while mine come to nothing.
I thought I was doing fine after the first two josekis, on the right side, and thought things started to go a bit wrong when White played
at F12. But I still thought I was relatively OK. It wasn't until White played J4, invading the Kobayashi, that the game really turned.
This is an interesting game because it has quite a few parallels to the last one I posted. Once again I seem to find exactly the wrong joseki to play in any given situation
and once again, my opponent invaded my Kobayashi formation and I was unable to figure out how to deal with it properly. This caused things to spiral out of control very quickly. Also, my opponents' invasions work, while mine come to nothing.I thought I was doing fine after the first two josekis, on the right side, and thought things started to go a bit wrong when White played
at F12. But I still thought I was relatively OK. It wasn't until White played J4, invading the Kobayashi, that the game really turned.-
skydyr
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Re: What do I have to do just to get to 5k?
A few quick thoughts regarding the game with the 2d opponent.
First off, you seem to pick the kobayashi fuseki frequently in your games, and then struggle to handle it. What makes you pick it? Why do you like it? What is your plan with it?
Second, regarding the attach-extend joseki in the upper right: consider entirely banishing this attachment from your games for a while. In this particular case it's bad because it's a moyo building move, but black's support stone is too low and a bit too far, plus white has a strong group on the other side of it that makes invasion easy. In general, however, it also makes white quite strong on the other side, which means that you will not be able to make an easy invasion on the white side in the future. Unless you're sure you won't want to, it's often better to keep your options more open.
Regarding the upper left joseki choice, when you approach a 3-4 stone, particularly with the knight's move approach, your first assumption should be that your opponent will play some sort of pincer. This means that you need to be satisfied with living in place, or have a plan to counterattack. If a pincer worries you, then you should consider, from less to more worry, the high approach, low large knight's approach, and the 2 space high approach.
A few other things to consider with it are that with C6 on the 3rd line, white has made the left side relatively small, so grabbing territory there isn't a big priority. Also, with the stones on the top side, the position is relatively similar to the kobayashi formation, except that black has no invasion to compare with white H3. This makes me think without analysis that black should consider approaching this in a similar manner to the kobayashi: low large knight or 2-space high approach.
For G12, how would you use this group to harrass white's left? That is, did you have a specific plan, or just a general feeling? To me, at least, there's no real threat to surround, since white's wall is so strong; it has lots of open space and lots of liberties, plus backup stones in the lower left. Did you think G11 was sente, and where did you expect your opponent to respond if so? I ask because the follow-up move, G9, looks a lot more like running away than an attack.
Regarding
it's bad for two reasons: First, as mentioned, once you play the slide, you remove the option of taking the corner. This constrains your play and doesn't threaten the corner stones that much, so you're committing yourself to a particular goal or line and can't trade as easily. It also doesn't help prevent white from connecting more, since white was already separated, and white can play to cut it later, with E3, when circumstances warrant. White responded, though, so perhaps it's not that bad. When black follows up and white gets L3, however, black is in big trouble. L3 for white means that white is practically alive, and alive means strong. White's C3 made the other group strong too. Black's group based around F3, however, is not strong yet, so white can bully it. In addition, once white lives in black's former moyo, how does black get compensation?
First off, you seem to pick the kobayashi fuseki frequently in your games, and then struggle to handle it. What makes you pick it? Why do you like it? What is your plan with it?
Second, regarding the attach-extend joseki in the upper right: consider entirely banishing this attachment from your games for a while. In this particular case it's bad because it's a moyo building move, but black's support stone is too low and a bit too far, plus white has a strong group on the other side of it that makes invasion easy. In general, however, it also makes white quite strong on the other side, which means that you will not be able to make an easy invasion on the white side in the future. Unless you're sure you won't want to, it's often better to keep your options more open.
Regarding the upper left joseki choice, when you approach a 3-4 stone, particularly with the knight's move approach, your first assumption should be that your opponent will play some sort of pincer. This means that you need to be satisfied with living in place, or have a plan to counterattack. If a pincer worries you, then you should consider, from less to more worry, the high approach, low large knight's approach, and the 2 space high approach.
A few other things to consider with it are that with C6 on the 3rd line, white has made the left side relatively small, so grabbing territory there isn't a big priority. Also, with the stones on the top side, the position is relatively similar to the kobayashi formation, except that black has no invasion to compare with white H3. This makes me think without analysis that black should consider approaching this in a similar manner to the kobayashi: low large knight or 2-space high approach.
For G12, how would you use this group to harrass white's left? That is, did you have a specific plan, or just a general feeling? To me, at least, there's no real threat to surround, since white's wall is so strong; it has lots of open space and lots of liberties, plus backup stones in the lower left. Did you think G11 was sente, and where did you expect your opponent to respond if so? I ask because the follow-up move, G9, looks a lot more like running away than an attack.
Regarding
it's bad for two reasons: First, as mentioned, once you play the slide, you remove the option of taking the corner. This constrains your play and doesn't threaten the corner stones that much, so you're committing yourself to a particular goal or line and can't trade as easily. It also doesn't help prevent white from connecting more, since white was already separated, and white can play to cut it later, with E3, when circumstances warrant. White responded, though, so perhaps it's not that bad. When black follows up and white gets L3, however, black is in big trouble. L3 for white means that white is practically alive, and alive means strong. White's C3 made the other group strong too. Black's group based around F3, however, is not strong yet, so white can bully it. In addition, once white lives in black's former moyo, how does black get compensation?-
Fedya
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Re: What do I have to do just to get to 5k?
Because I feel like I get even worse results when I try playing the Chinese. My opponents always seem to get a lot of territory when they play the Chinese regardless of when or where I invade, but I always get invaded and wind up with little.First off, you seem to pick the kobayashi fuseki frequently in your games, and then struggle to handle it. What makes you pick it?
I also like approaching one of my opponent's corner stones earlier, so that it's harder for them to try to build a moyo.Why do you like it?
Try to get a bunch of territory on the side withWhat is your plan with it?
, 
, and 
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Fedya
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Re: What do I have to do just to get to 5k?
Having thought about it some more, and after playing another game, I think it's clear that somewhere along the waymy understanding of fuseki has gone badly wrong, which would probably explain why I seem to keep falling behind early in my games. I mean, I have trouble stopping my opponents from getting big moyos with the sanrensei, which as I understand it is supposed to be more about influence than territory. Heaven help me when my opponent pick a fuseki I rarely see, and I have to try to figure out what to do:First off, you seem to pick the kobayashi fuseki frequently in your games, and then struggle to handle it. What makes you pick it? Why do you like it? What is your plan with it?
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Knotwilg
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Re: What do I have to do just to get to 5k?
OK. Back to some positional judgment here. I think Black must still be walking around with raised eyebrows after your resigning here.
This is a big fight with many groups involved and one where you have the advantage. This is not a position to resign.
Try thinking of yourself as being Black here and think you are surrounded by White. How do you feel?
This is a big fight with many groups involved and one where you have the advantage. This is not a position to resign.
Try thinking of yourself as being Black here and think you are surrounded by White. How do you feel?
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Majordomo
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Re: What do I have to do just to get to 5k?
I'll second Knotwilg! My (partially to be) trusted phone version of CS even gives black a 30% chance to win, which is indicative of a won game for white by a large factor (to the point where I'll win against it at a dan+ level if we continue from the position).
Maybe you were just fatigued at the point of resignation? I know I've sometimes resigned prematurely when I've been disappointed by my play or tired, and not because I knew the position was lost (but more that it was lost given my state of mind).
Maybe you were just fatigued at the point of resignation? I know I've sometimes resigned prematurely when I've been disappointed by my play or tired, and not because I knew the position was lost (but more that it was lost given my state of mind).
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Knotwilg
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Re: What do I have to do just to get to 5k?
Couple of possible moves. The ideas are not the most important here. What's important is that I instantly feel there must be possibilities. Your perception of who leads the fight is wrong.