Life In 19x19

Kirby wrote:Based on this logic, perhaps playing around 'a' as black in the diagram below would also be inefficient.

$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Of course it would be inefficient.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

is more like it, eh?

One reason Kirby's extension at d10 is liable to overconcentration (which Charles briefly touched on but I though would be good to show diagrams) is both players might like to later push at this shared power point, and in both sequences black's d10 ends up inefficient:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$ Black pushes
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . X O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O . O . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X 1 2 4 6 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . 3 5 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$W White pushes
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . X O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O . O . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 2 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 4 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . 6 7 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . 8 . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

BillSpight wrote: I think that you are trying to get me to put more weight on the idea of necessity than I do.

At this point in the discussion, I'm not really trying to get you to put weight into anything, as much as I'm trying to distinguish the two cases we've been talking about: the position in the game, and leaning after low 3-4 approach. I know that the latter is good in some cases, and the former clearly seems bad, given ez4u's example.

What I didn't understand was what was different between the two cases.

I think that your explanation here:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bc Leaning first
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . d . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . c . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . b . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . B . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , 1 3 . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O 2 . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

illustrates exactly what I didn't understand. Thinking of a close extension like this, 'a' still seems reasonable locally, and it seems more reasonable than playing such a close move in the top left in the game we are discussing. Extending this idea to extensions that are further away leads me to understand that there is more efficiency in extending from the 3-4 leaning example, than in the game position.

Thanks for that illustration.

ez4u wrote:This discussion seems to be getting out of hand. Quick, play another game!

Yes, I kind of agree. I always know I've gone too far when I'm afraid to check the forum for new replies.

I actually did play another game today for the AYD. I lost. I'll be getting a review from In-seong, though, so I probably won't post a self- review here. Maybe on Friday - or sooner, if I can get another non-AYD game in before then.

You could post the game here anyway, then compare our comments to the professional review, and see how far off we were

This is an excellent study journal. It succeeds because Kirby puts enough energy into both a) examining his own games and b) presenting his thoughts. This encourages stronger players to comment, and this whole combination turns it into a great learning resource for others. Kudos!

Thanks for the kind words, daal. As ez4u once said, flattery will get you everywhere!

I decided to play a game today, despite my schedule.

Here's my review.

Problems.

Position 1

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[go]$$
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . O . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , O . . . . , O . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X . X . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O B O . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . O . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I played the marked move, but as in the game, he can push up. I think it makes more sense to play 3-3 here.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . O . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , O . . . . , O . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X . X . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . B . . X . O . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Position 2

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[go]$$ Position at move 65
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . O . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , O B . . . , O . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X . X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . X X X X . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . X O . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X X X . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . . . X X . . . . . . O . . . X O . |
$$ | . . X . X O . . . . . . . O . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O X O . . . , . . . X . X X O . |
$$ | . . . O O X . O . . X . . X . . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I totally misread the sequence starting with the marked move. I should have realized I could not cut, and should have protected the group much sooner.

I think that leaving this group weak, along with the result in the bottom left, really put me at risk of losing this game.

I got lucky that he played in a way to let me kill him at the end, but before that, I think it's white's game.

mitsun wrote:You could post the game here anyway, then compare our comments to the professional review, and see how far off we were

Hehe, sure. I'll post a review a bit later - I've gotta get working for now. But that game can be summarized in that I misread and lost a group, tried to make a big moyo, he invaded, I misread and he got a good result. Then a bunch of weird ko stuff, and he ended up with more points.

Kirby wrote:

mitsun wrote:You could post the game here anyway, then compare our comments to the professional review, and see how far off we were

Hehe, sure. I'll post a review a bit later - I've gotta get working for now. But that game can be summarized in that I misread and lost a group, tried to make a big moyo, he invaded, I misread and he got a good result. Then a bunch of weird ko stuff, and he ended up with more points.

So you were channelling me, were you?

So now that I am home, I had some time to look at a few more positions.

Position 3
Another mistake, I made, I think is this move:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$ Position at move 21
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , O . . . . , O . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X O B . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X . X . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . O . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I looked it up, and maybe it is good for me to play this way if white tenukis, like he did in game.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$ Position at move 21
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , O . B . . , O . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X . X . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . O . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

If that works as an option, it seems a bit better, since it breaks white up more on the top. The way I played in the game just gave him a bunch of territory.

Position 4

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$ Position at move 35
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . O . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , O . . . . , O . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . X X . X . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . B . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X O . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . O O X . O . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

What am I really gaining with this move? Not much. If anything, it seems it should be on the other side, but that'll probably end in gote:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$ gote
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . O . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , O . . . . , O . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . 1 3 X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O 2 X X . X . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X O . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . O O X . O . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

So it probably means I should play somewhere else. But where? My group on the top is weak,so it seems like I should help it out. But what is a good way? Maybe something like this?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$ Alternative?
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . O . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , O . . . . , O . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . X X . X . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 2 1 . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X O . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . O O X . O . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I can see why I tenuki, as I thought I had a safety net, which I misread (cutting through to "get eye"). But anyway, I should help this group, I think.

I could just give up and play a big point elsewhere, but leaving the group weak could be trouble for later...

Position 5

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[go]$$ Position at move 46
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . O . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , O . . . . , O . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X . X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . X X . X . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . B . . . |
$$ | . . . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X O . . . . . . . . . . O O . |
$$ | . . . O X O . . . , . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . . O O X . O . . X . . X . . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Here, I had a chance to pressure the group, but maybe I did it the wrong way. Maybe I can just play in a simple way, and make a shape at the bottom, like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$ Position at move 46
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . O . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , O . . . . , O . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X . X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . X X . X . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 4 . . |
$$ | . . . . X X . . . . . . . . 5 2 6 . . |
$$ | . . X . X O . . . . . . . . . 1 O O . |
$$ | . . . O X O . . 7 , . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . . O O X . O . . X . . X . . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

He might resist:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$ Position at move 46
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . O . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , O . . . . , O . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X . X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . X X . X . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . 6 3 . . . |
$$ | . . . . X X . . . . . . . . 5 2 4 . . |
$$ | . . X . X O . . . . . . . . . 1 O O . |
$$ | . . . O X O . . . , . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . . O O X . O . . X . . X . . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

But in the worst case, it seems to be the same variation as this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$ Position at move 46
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . O . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , O . . . . , O . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X . X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . X X . X . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . 4 5 . . . |
$$ | . . . . X X . . . . . . . . 3 2 6 . . |
$$ | . . X . X O . . . . . . . . . 1 O O . |
$$ | . . . O X O . . . , . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . . O O X . O . . X . . X . . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

All seem OK for me, I think. So I think I like this approach better to what I played in the game.

Position 6

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$ Position at move 164
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O . O O O O . . . . . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X O X O X O O O . O X . X . . . |
$$ | . X X X O X . . X O X X O X . X . . . |
$$ | . O . X X X X X X X . . X O . O X . . |
$$ | . X O . . O . O O X . O X O . O X . . |
$$ | . O O X X O . O X X X . X O . X X . . |
$$ | . O . O X X X O O O . X X O O O . . . |
$$ | . O . O X O O O . , O O O O X X X X . |
$$ | . . O . O X X O O O X O X X O . X O . |
$$ | . . . O b X O X X X X O X O . X O O . |
$$ | . . X . . a O . . . O X X O . X X O . |
$$ | . . . . X X . . . . . X O . . . X O . |
$$ | . . X . X O . . . . . . . O . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O X O . . . , . . . X . X X O . |
$$ | . . . O O X . O . . X . . X . . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Here, I was faced with the decision to threaten ko by playing bamboo connection at 'b', or to take away a liberty from his group with 'a'. I opted for 'a', because I wanted to save everything and kill him.

However, it looks like he can kill me - something we both missed (probably due to time).

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$ Position at move 164
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O . O O O O . . . . . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X O X O X O O O . O X . X . . . |
$$ | . X X X O X . . X O X X O X . X . . . |
$$ | . O . X X X X X X X . . X O . O X . . |
$$ | . X O . . O . O O X . O X O . O X . . |
$$ | . O O X X O . O X X X . X O . X X . . |
$$ | . O . O X X X O O O . X X O O O . . . |
$$ | . O . O X O O O . , O O O O X X X X . |
$$ | . . O . O X X O O O X O X X O . X O . |
$$ | . . . O . X O X X X X O X O . X O O . |
$$ | . . X . . 1 O 6 . . O X X O . X X O . |
$$ | . . . . X X . . . . 2 X O . . . X O . |
$$ | . . X . X O . . . . 4 3 5 O . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O X O . . . , . . . X . X X O . |
$$ | . . . O O X . O . . X . . X . . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

The consolation is that I can probably kill his group on the right, but that's a lot of stones to lose in the center!

So I should probably have gone with bamboo, and endured the ko.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$ Position at move 164
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O . O O O O . . . . . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X O X O X O O O . O X . X . . . |
$$ | . X X X O X . . X O X X O X . X . . . |
$$ | . O . X X X X X X X . . X O . O X . . |
$$ | . X O . . O . O O X . O X O . O X . . |
$$ | . O O X X O . O X X X . X O . X X . . |
$$ | . O . O X X X O O O . X X O O O . . . |
$$ | . O . O X O O O . , O O O O X X X X . |
$$ | . . O . O X X O O O X O X X O . X O . |
$$ | . . . O B X O X X X X O X O . X O O . |
$$ | . . X . . . O . . . O X X O . X X O . |
$$ | . . . . X X . . . . . X O . . . X O . |
$$ | . . X . X O . . . . . . . O . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O X O . . . , . . . X . X X O . |
$$ | . . . O O X . O . . X . . X . . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Kirby wrote:

mitsun wrote:You could post the game here anyway, then compare our comments to the professional review, and see how far off we were

Hehe, sure. I'll post a review a bit later - I've gotta get working for now. But that game can be summarized in that I misread and lost a group, tried to make a big moyo, he invaded, I misread and he got a good result. Then a bunch of weird ko stuff, and he ended up with more points.

Okay, as requested, here is the game from AYD that I lost. I lost a bit at the beginning, then started to overplay a lot. That led to the result I alluded to in my earlier comment.

Anyway, here is my review. P.S. I haven't had a review from In-seong, yet. These are just my own thoughts for now.

Some issues with this game.

Position 1

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$ Position at move 43
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , X . . . . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O X . . . . X 1 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X X X . . 2 O . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . O . O O X . . . . . . O . X . . . . |
$$ | . O . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I played , above, but after , I felt that I had done wrong. Before that, I should have probably just played there myself:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$ Position at move 43
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , X . . . . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X W W . W . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O X . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X X X . . B O . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . O . O O X . . . . . . O . X . . . . |
$$ | . O . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

White's marked group is not weak, but not yet alive, either. So a running battle should be fine.

In the game, after making the mistake, I didn't read out a magical sequence to make my move work. Instead, I was angry, and I overplayed.

Instead of this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$ Position at move 43
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , X . . . . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O X . . . . X X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X X X . . O O B . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . O . O O X . . . . . . O . X . . . . |
$$ | . O . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

which I didn't read a good sequence for, I should just play the simple way:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$ Position at move 43
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , X . . . . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O X . . . B X X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X X X . . O O . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . O . O O X . . . . . . O . X . . . . |
$$ | . O . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

The result of my aggression after making this mistake led to huge problems later.

Position 2

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$ Position at move 82
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , X . . . . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O O O . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X X O X . . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . O O X O O O X X X X . . . B . . . . |
$$ | . . O X X X O X O O X O . . . O X . . |
$$ | . O . O O X X O O X . X O . X . . . . |
$$ | . O . O X X O O X . X X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I was too set on trying to kill white, and I didn't read a way to kill him. But I still played the aggressive way. Instead, I should just play simply:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$ Position at move 82
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , X . . . . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O O O . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X X O X . . . . . . . . 3 X O O . . |
$$ | . O O X O O O X X X X . . . 2 . . . . |
$$ | . . O X X X O X O O X O . . . O X . . |
$$ | . O . O O X X O O X . X O . X 1 . . . |
$$ | . O . O X X O O X . X X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

White may live, but I'm not risking as much this way.

Position 3

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$ Position at move 133
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . |
$$ | . X X O O . O . . . . . . O . X O X . |
$$ | . O O X X . . . . O . O . . . X X . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . B . . . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . O X X . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X X O . . . . O O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O O O . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . X X O . O X . . . . . . . X O O X . |
$$ | . O O X O O O X X X X . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . . O X X X O X O O X O X X O O X X X |
$$ | . O . O O X X O O X . X O O X O O X O |
$$ | . O . O X X O O X . X X O . X O . O . |
$$ | . . O . . O . . . X . . . O . O . . O |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

In this part, too, later in the game, I felt way behind, so I went all out. This puts too much on the table, and is too risky.

It went into an all out ko:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$ Position at move 149
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . |
$$ | . X X O O . O . . . . . . O . X O X . |
$$ | X O O X X X X X . O . O . . . X X . . |
$$ | X O O O O O O . . . . . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . O X X . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X X O . . . . O O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O O O . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . X X O . O X . . . . . . . X O O X . |
$$ | . O O X O O O X X X X . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . . O X X X O X O O X O X X O O X X X |
$$ | . O . O O X X O O X . X O O X O O X O |
$$ | . O . O X X O O X . X X O . X O . O . |
$$ | . . O . . O . . . X . . . O . O . . O |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Which was exciting, but gambled the game too much. Yes, I think I was behind, but this doesn't seem the way to catch up.

Position 4

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$ Position at move 184
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X X O B . . O O X . . . . . . O O O . |
$$ | . X X O O O O X . X . . . O . X O X . |
$$ | X O O X X X X X . O . O . . . X X . . |
$$ | X O O O O O O X X . . . X . . . . . . |
$$ | O . O . . . . O . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . . X X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . O X X . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X X O . . . . O O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O O O . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . X X O . O X . . . . . . . X O O X . |
$$ | . O O . O O O X X X X . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . . O , . . O X O O X O X X O O X X X |
$$ | . O . O O . . O O X . X O O . O O X . |
$$ | . O . O . . O O X . X X O O . O . O X |
$$ | . . O . O O . X . X . X O O . O O O O |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

This move was probably the last big decision point. The stones on the left are so weak, and I only get ko in the top left. It's not the time to play to get ko.

I should simply protect the group:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$ Position at move 184
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X X O . . . O O X . . . . . . O O O . |
$$ | . X X O O O O X . X . . . O . X O X . |
$$ | X O O X X X X X . O . O . . . X X . . |
$$ | X O O O O O O X X . . . X . . . . . . |
$$ | O . O . . . . O . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . . X X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . B . . O . . . . O X X . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X X O . . . . O O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O O O . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . X X O . O X . . . . . . . X O O X . |
$$ | . O O . O O O X X X X . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . . O , . . O X O O X O X X O O X X X |
$$ | . O . O O . . O O X . X O O . O O X . |
$$ | . O . O . . O O X . X X O O . O . O X |
$$ | . . O . O O . X . X . X O O . O O O O |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I can always go for ko in the top left later, and if he takes gote to kill, the game is still close and I may have a decent chance at winning.

---

It appears that there is a big recurring theme in this game:
* After losing a bit in the beginning, I started to really overplay. I didn't read that the "aggressive way" worked, but I felt I had to play it.

Even when I'm behind, I must play the "normal way" and not the "aggressive way", unless I read a way that the aggressive way is working.

In perhaps all of the problem areas shown above, I didn't read the "aggressive way" working. I felt I was behind, so I just grabbed it. But this put in too much risk into the game.

Lesson: Play the "normal way" unless I am SURE that the "aggressive way" is working - even when I am losing. The game was still close enough that I might make a comeback by some slack moves. But always going for the aggressive way, I risk putting myself further behind, to a place where I cannot catch up.

You lost the ko in the upper left when you captured with 193. If you simply connect at 195 (1 below) you have the same number of liberties as in the game but you are one move ahead. You are alive in double ko.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bc 2 Captures 2 stones
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . O X . X O . X 5 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X X 1 X O . O O X . . . . . . O O O . |
$$ | 2 X X O O O O X . X . . . O . X O X . |
$$ | 3 O O X X X X X . O . O . . . X X . . |
$$ | 4 O O O O O O X X . . . X . . . . . . |
$$ | O . O . . . . O . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . . X X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . O X X . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X X O . . . . O O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O O O . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . X X O . O X . . . . . . . X O O X . |
$$ | . O O . O O O X X X X . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . O X O O X O X X O O X X X |
$$ | . O . O O . . O O X . X O O . O O X . |
$$ | . O . O . . O O X . X X O O . O . O X |
$$ | . . O . O O . X . X . X O O . O O O O |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

If Black had answered 204 from the other side (1 below), Black would have had one eye at C11. That would have left much less of a burden when Black plays out at 7. Combine this with the previous play in the upper left and I think Black would have been doing better than White.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | X . X . X O . X X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X X X X O . O O X . . . . . . O O O . |
$$ | O X X O O O O X . X . . . O . X O X . |
$$ | O O O X X X X X . O . O . . . X X . . |
$$ | O O O O O O O X X . . . X . . . . . . |
$$ | O . O . . . . O . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . . . 7 . . . X X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 1 5 X . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O 2 3 O . . . . O X X . . . X . . . |
$$ | . 4 X X O . . . . O O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O O O . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | 6 X X O . O X . . . . . . . X O O X . |
$$ | . O O . O O O X X X X . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . O X O O X O X X O O X X X |
$$ | . O . O O . . O O X . X O O . O O X . |
$$ | . O . O . . O O X . X X O O X O . O X |
$$ | . . O . O O . X . X . X O O . O O O O |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]