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Prokovich game

https://lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?t=1443

Page 25 of 33

Re: Prokovich game

Posted: Fri Oct 01, 2010 2:41 am
by gaius
Joaz Banbeck wrote:Locally, right around :b77:, white is stronger. Playing a contact move here seems unduly defensive.
White's move below is better shape, and follows the proverb of not strengthening a weak stone with a contact move.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm77 My prediction
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O . 1 . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X O . 2 . , O . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . X O . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O O O O O . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . X O O X X X X . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . O O X . . X . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . X X O X . . O X . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . O . X X O . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . O . O O X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I would say your move is the one that's weak... For one thing, black occupies the vital point of whites marked kosumi. He can still connect - and if he does, there is now also nasty cutting aji left for white (depending on the ladder, see variation). Black's stone is not weak, it can easily connect out anyway; therefore, there's no harm in touching it. I'm afraid I agree with MW here.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm77 My prediction
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X 1 . . 7 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X @ . # . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X O . @ 3 6 O . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . X O . O 4 5 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

Re: Prokovich game

Posted: Fri Oct 01, 2010 4:16 am
by Magicwand
Joaz Banbeck wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm77 My prediction
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O . 1 . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X O . 2 . , O . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . X O . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O O O O O . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . X O O X X X X . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . O O X . . X . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . X X O X . . O X . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . O . X X O . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . O . O O X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

what kind of move is that???
can you not see that is a kyuish move?
sometimes you amaze me with your thought.

Re: Prokovich game

Posted: Fri Oct 01, 2010 5:09 am
by topazg
I also don't like Joaz' move at all. It's one thing if it keeps Black disconnected - if it doesn't, what's the point?

Not completely sure about magicwand's alternative, but I do like its flow and the ability to treat either F15 and F16 or G17 lightly if required.

Re: Prokovich game

Posted: Fri Oct 01, 2010 5:51 am
by dfan
Magicwand wrote:what kind of move is that???
can you not see that is a kyuish move?

It's probably the move I would have played, so maybe that proves Magicwand's point. :)
Let's keep things polite, though. I don't want anybody to be dissuaded from posting their opinion. This is a discussion, not a contest.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm78 ACTUAL GAME: Move 78. Points from prisoners: B 2
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O . X . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X O . . 1 , O . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . X O . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O O O O O . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . X O O X X X X . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . O O X . . X . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . X X O X . . O X . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . O . X X O . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . O . O O X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Re: Prokovich game

Posted: Fri Oct 01, 2010 7:33 am
by Joaz Banbeck
Dusk Eagle wrote:How is :b77: a weak stone? It can very easily connect to the strong black group.


It can be disconnected by white at any time.

Re: Prokovich game

Posted: Fri Oct 01, 2010 7:47 am
by emeraldemon
Maybe something like this?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm79 guess: Move 78. Points from prisoners: B 2
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X 3 5 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O 4 X 1 2 . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X O 6 . O , O . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . X O . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O O O O O . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . X O O X X X X . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . O O X . . X . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . X X O X . . O X . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . O . X X O . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . O . O O X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Re: Prokovich game

Posted: Fri Oct 01, 2010 9:40 am
by Jedo
Does black really gain that much from crawling on the second line like that and letting white settle though?

Re: Prokovich game

Posted: Fri Oct 01, 2010 9:44 am
by Chew Terr
Jedo wrote:Does black really gain that much from crawling on the second line like that and letting white settle though?


Well, it reduces in sente and still leave cutting points. Whether or not that's sufficient is above my pay grade.

Re: Prokovich game

Posted: Fri Oct 01, 2010 12:12 pm
by ethanb
emeraldemon wrote:Maybe something like this?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm79 guess: Move 78. Points from prisoners: B 2
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X 3 5 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O 4 X 1 2 . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X O 6 . O , O . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . X O . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O O O O O . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . X O O X X X X . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . O O X . . X . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . X X O X . . O X . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . O . X X O . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . O . O O X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Like your 79, but 81 could be better.



Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm79 guess: Move 79. Points from prisoners: B 2
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O 3 X 1 2 . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X O 4 . O 6 O . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . X O . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O O O O O . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . X O O X X X X . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . O O X . . X . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . X X O X . . O X . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . O . X X O . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . O . O O X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


The last white move might be too slow, but he almost certainly won't just make an eye in gote.


Note that he can't resist by descending:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm79 guess: Move 79. Points from prisoners: B 2
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X 4 6 7 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O 3 X 1 2 . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X O 5 . O . O . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . X O . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O O O O O . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . X O O X X X X . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . O O X . . X . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . X X O X . . O X . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . O . X X O . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . O . O O X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


He can get thickness, but since he can also get it without sacrificing three stones, I don't think this will happen.

Since white has so many problems after this black 81, I feel like the straight down block at 80 is almost unviable. White may respond by jumping out to make shape and reduce the center instead. Or he may disconnect at the top with 80 and push on the invasion to gain strength to reduce the center. This is probably a better strategy.

Re: Prokovich game

Posted: Fri Oct 01, 2010 1:01 pm
by dfan
I guess I should really give the komi, since people are starting to do some counting. It's a Japanese game from 1982, so I guess the komi must be 5.5?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm79 ACTUAL GAME: Move 79. Points from prisoners: B 2
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O 1 X . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X O . . O , O . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . X O . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O O O O O . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . X O O X X X X . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . O O X . . X . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . X X O X . . O X . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . O . X X O . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . O . O O X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Re: Prokovich game

Posted: Fri Oct 01, 2010 3:20 pm
by xed_over
dfan wrote:My rule is, if two dan players have commented, I can go on to the next move. Let this be an incentive to get your predictions in early!


yeah, but you still gotta give them time to finish their argument :)

Re: Prokovich game

Posted: Sun Oct 03, 2010 6:41 am
by dfan
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm80 ACTUAL GAME: Move 80. Points from prisoners: B 2
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O X X . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X O . . O , O . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . X O . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X O . . . . . . . . . 1 . . |
$$ | . . . X . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O O O O O . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . X O O X X X X . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . O O X . . X . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . X X O X . . O X . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . O . X X O . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . O . O O X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Re: Prokovich game

Posted: Sun Oct 03, 2010 10:58 am
by Joaz Banbeck
Jedo wrote:Does black really gain that much from crawling on the second line like that and letting white settle though?


That is a very good question. I've been wondering much the same myself. Now, with his latest move - tenukiing to the right side - white seems to agree with you.

Black's attack seems to be trying to encircle from the north and south, yet white just runs eastward. I expected black to attack from the east, using his strong western group as an anvil.

This still feels like it was the right direction:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm76 My prediction
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X O . . . , 1 . 2 . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . X O . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O O O O O . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . X O O X X X X . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . O O X . . X . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . X X O X . . O X . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . O . X X O . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . O . O O X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Re: Prokovich game

Posted: Sun Oct 03, 2010 7:07 pm
by DIV
seems like black really need to break into the white influenced area around N14. i would probably want to play around there, since there is black below and above to the right. Gaining some space there can quickly give him strength toward the right or upper left, a little lower and strength toward the bottom. I don't know if that's right this move, but I'd want to get in there sooner than later, that's my intuition.

Re: Prokovich game

Posted: Sun Oct 03, 2010 7:43 pm
by dfan
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm81 ACTUAL GAME: Move 81. Points from prisoners: B 2
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O X X . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X O . . O , O . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . X O . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X O . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . X . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O O O O O . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . X O O X X X X . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . 1 . . . . X . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . O O X . . X . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . X X O X . . O X . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . O . X X O . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . O . O O X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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