[go]$$Bcm41 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O O X . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . O X . 3 . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . O X . a O . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O X . . . O . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . O X . O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X . . O . X O . O . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X . , a . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . X . O X . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Of the two cuts, it's most essential to protect this one, and Jedo's move makes me feel kinda icky about a white move at a. My move still allows for a, but the results is somewhat less clunky. And because of the ladder, Jedo's move doesn't protect both cuts thoroughly.
Re: Teamovitch #1
Posted: Tue Feb 15, 2011 8:48 am
by Jedo
Yeah Fwiffo is definitely right, my move doesn't make any sense.
Re: Teamovitch #1
Posted: Tue Feb 15, 2011 8:55 am
by Joaz Banbeck
Jedo wrote:Yeah Fwiffo is definitely right, my move doesn't make any sense.
It does. I was going to choose yours over Fwiffo's. I just hadn't decided to play safe with Jordus' implied suggestion, or get aggressive with yours.
If we are sufficiently aggressive, making them worry about reactivating R8, then we may be the first to tenuki to the upper left.
Re: Teamovitch #1
Posted: Tue Feb 15, 2011 9:09 am
by fwiffo
Well, this is all my fault for suggesting that stupid jump.
Re: Teamovitch #1
Posted: Wed Feb 16, 2011 8:12 am
by Joaz Banbeck
To teammates:
fwiffo wrote:Well, this is all my fault for suggesting that stupid jump.
It is a complication of the jump, but yours was the best of the three. FWIW, I wanted the simple extension.
[go]$$Bcm41 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . X 6 . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O O X . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . O X X . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . O X . 4 O . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O X 5 . . O . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . O X . O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X . . O . X O . O . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X . , . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . X . O X . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Let's poke and then cut. It has some threat against the bottom right, and leaves the existing black cutting stone floating (and weaker than our cutting stone). Black could take the chance to make a little more strength facing our right side, which we'll have to be wary of, but I think it's worth it for the central strength this can give us.
Re: Teamovitch #1
Posted: Wed Feb 16, 2011 8:56 am
by topazg
Obs:
And that is the weakness of the jump. I love chew's idea, really love it, but...
$$Bcm41 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . X a . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O O X . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . O X X . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . O X . 4 O . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O X b . . O . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . O X . O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X . . O . X O . O 6 . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X . , 5 . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . X . O X . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------
[go]$$Bcm41 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . X a . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O O X . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . O X X . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . O X . 4 O . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O X b . . O . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . O X . O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X . . O . X O . O 6 . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X . , 5 . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . X . O X . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
"a" and "b" aren't big enough if Black is simply alive here. I need to read some complicated corner stuff. I think there's only 1 eye there. If Black needs to play again to stay alive, I'm taking chew's suggestion as we get to get great thickness facing the top left. If he doesn't, we play in the top left now if we get the suggestion.
Further thoughts:
$$Wcm48 Still only one eye $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O O X . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . O X X . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . O X . O O . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O X . . . O . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . O X . O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X . . O . X O . O O . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X . 9 X 4 5 | $$ | . . . . X . . . . X . O X . a X 7 3 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . 1 2 . 8 6 0 | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------
[go]$$Wcm48 Looks like 2 eyes? $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O O X . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . O X X . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . O X . O O . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O X . . . O . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . O X . O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X . . O . X O . O O . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X . 7 X 2 3 | $$ | . . . . X . . . . X . O X 0 . X 5 1 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O a 9 8 . 6 4 b | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Re: Teamovitch #1
Posted: Wed Feb 16, 2011 9:27 am
by tj86430
WIC/suggestion:
It seems that our wall faces our potential territory, whereas their wall faces our fairly certain territory. So lets keep pushing, K12 is almost certainly sente now.
Re: Teamovitch #1
Posted: Mon Feb 21, 2011 4:43 am
by Jordus
*Bump*
Re: Teamovitch #1
Posted: Mon Feb 21, 2011 4:52 am
by tj86430
Red?
Re: Teamovitch #1
Posted: Mon Feb 21, 2011 5:08 am
by Redundant
My bad.
We want to tenuki to to the top left ASAP. Things seem pretty settled in the middle, so let's do so. I think the left is more important than the top, so c16.
Re: Teamovitch #1
Posted: Wed Feb 23, 2011 3:52 am
by topazg
Sorry about the delay, I'd forgotten chew had already suggested a move.
$$Bcm41 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O O X . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . O X X . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . O X . 4 O . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O X . . . O . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . O X . O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X . . O . X O . O . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X . , . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . X . O X . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------
[go]$$Bcm41 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X 7 . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . b 6 , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . b . . . . . . O O X . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . O X X . . . , . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . O X . 4 O . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O X . . . O . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . O X . O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X . . O . X O . O . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X . , . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . X . O X . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
@TJ: I agree we'll get it in sente, but we'll never get to cut at M12. I don't know if we want to or not just yet, but it's nice to know the option is there - if the cut starts to look worthless, this move looks good.
@Chew: I'm calling them on this, let's see how secure their group is.
@Obs:
This game is complicated. I think Black has only 1 guaranteed eye in the lower right, but it's possible Black has 1.5 - either way, we should be able to get some value from the cut at M12. Timing between that and the top left is pretty tricky for me though.
Re: Teamovitch #1
Posted: Wed Feb 23, 2011 7:45 am
by fwiffo
Black suggestion:
$$Bcm41 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O O X . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . O X X . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . O X a 4 O . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O X 5 b . O . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . O X . O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X . . O . X O . O . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X . , c . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . X . O X . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------
[go]$$Bcm41 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O O X . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . O X X . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . O X a 4 O . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O X 5 b . O . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . O X . O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X . . O . X O . O . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X . , c . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . X . O X . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
White's last move was obvious - our shape gets destroyed in sente. There are three ways to protect the cut, , a and b. I don't see any reason to make it more complicated than it needs to be.
Tenuki, like c, may be OK if we know for sure white will respond, but I don't think getting cut here is a risk I want to take.
Re: Teamovitch #1
Posted: Wed Feb 23, 2011 8:16 am
by Redundant
@Topaz:
$$Wcm1 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X 2 . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . 1 , 3 . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O O X . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . O X X . . . , . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . O X . O O . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O X . . . O . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . O X . O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X . . O . X O . O . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X . , . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . X . O X . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------
, a and b. I don't see any reason to make it more complicated than it needs to be.