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 Post subject: Re: SamT's Study Journal - A Beginner's Journey
Post #41 Posted: Mon Aug 18, 2014 10:00 am 
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Did not sleep well Saturday night, but I did study early on on Sunday. Just a little bit, of everything:

- Tsumego
- Tesuji
- Joseki
- Endgame
- Oh, and I did learn the monkey jump. And the jumpy monk.

I wanted to spend more time, but my sleep problems have destroyed my brain, and I also had to do quite a bit of work with the people building our house. I spent 5 hours driving around to different hardware stores, bought six light fixtures, and spent $300. Not my idea of fun.

Fun Fact #1: Our house burned down on December 10, just before Christmas, due to a mis-installed furnace. We're rebuilding, but the lawsuit took 4 months, the inspections delayed us another, and the incompetence of our builder another, so only now is the house nearly finished. Thus my Real Life (TM) hassles.

Games:

I played one game on IGS, even though I was feeling quite exhausted. I lost, but it wasn't JUST because my play was terrible. The other guy was better than me, and I could tell. My instincts hinted that maybe he used to be MUCH better, but was a little rusty. If he hadn't made a couple of simple mistakes, I would've lost by 50 or 80 points instead of 18. I will try to post the game later, when I'm on the right computer.

I also had another teaching game with my friend, Noel. I showed him the monkey jump and suggested he use it against me, and I managed to figure out the right move to shut it down, but it still worked wonders. I then used it back on him, and he failed to block it. He learned a lot but still looks terribly intimidated, even though I didn't think I was beating up on him. Perhaps the real thing that scares him is how huge the game is, and how complex the strategy. He says he wants to play something simpler, like Chess ;) He's a big anime fan, so I told him to go watch Hikaru No Go. We'll see if I can make him an addict.


Last edited by SamT on Tue Aug 19, 2014 5:50 am, edited 2 times in total.
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 Post subject: Re: SamT's Study Journal - A Beginner's Journey
Post #42 Posted: Tue Aug 19, 2014 5:43 am 
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No games yesterday. Was very tired due to the sleep issues I've been having. I focused instead on:

1) Tsumego/Tesuji- Approximately 190 of them! Maybe more!
-All 156 from "Basic" on Wbaduk (I missed 1/5 on first pass, which is a surprisingly high number)
-9 more on "Easy"
-The rest (uncounted, but quite a few) from Tsumego Pro, mostly Basic and Easy, plus the 300 pack of Tesuji I bought.

2) Joseki
-Reviewed what I learned yesterday, got a couple of new ones, about half a page in Ishida.
-Also started watching the Nick Sibicky vid on 9 4-4 joseki approach responses, but got too tired to continue.

3) SLEEP!
-I focused on getting some magnesium, melatonin, and vitamin D in me around 6:30.
-Passed out around 7:30, slept all the way through
-Feel great now! Ready to really learn something today.

Note: I can't find that game I played Sunday on IGS. If I forgot to save it, is it lost forever, or is there a way to get it off the server? Anyone know? If not, no big loss. I will be more careful in the future.

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 Post subject: Re: SamT's Study Journal - A Beginner's Journey
Post #43 Posted: Tue Aug 19, 2014 6:06 am 
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SamT wrote:
Note: I can't find that game I played Sunday on IGS. If I forgot to save it, is it lost forever, or is there a way to get it off the server?
Hi Sam. You can access the IGS games archive by logging in on the following page: my.pandanet.co.jp/index-e.htm


This post by Hushfield was liked by: SamT
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 Post subject: Re: SamT's Study Journal - A Beginner's Journey
Post #44 Posted: Tue Aug 19, 2014 12:49 pm 
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Thanks, Hushfield.

Sunday's game:
I am not playing too hot, and the guy is also better than me, and I can tell. Not a good combination. Yes, I was tired, but it still is me playing. I still made those mistakes -- they may have been the first thing I was thinking, yes, but comments are welcome beause that just means I am still looking at the wrong moves first!




Today's games, over lunch:

Game A
I did horribly badly here. I just couldn't get my brain to read anything, and when I did read anything, I read it terribly wrong. I have no excuse. I am not even sleepy :) Still, comments appreciated. If this is my "instinctive play", my instincts are seriously malformed.



Game B
I feel bad about this one. This guy was obviously new*, I could tell almost from the start. I felt like I was beating up on him. I wasn't playing terribly well myself; I made several big, big mistakes along the edge and when I was chasing him around through the middle, but he never capitalized on them. If he had been even a little bit more experienced, or just a little bit lucky, he could've had a much better showing. I referred him to L19, since this place has been great for me.

I am also sure that I do not know all of the mistakes I made. Comments are welcome, because I'm sure I was leaving terrible, terrible, terrible things open all the time, and I'd like to know what they are.



Game C
I did a teaching game over lunch with yet another friend. He had played several times on a MMORPG called "Age of Wushu", and he was better than your average newbie, and thought in terms of moyo and whole board position. He seems like he will actually stick with it! No game record, sorry, can't remember it.

Question of the day: I really need to figure out how to memorize my games as I play. Are there any exercises that will help? Anybody managed to train the ability rather than just develop it spontaneously over time?

---
*Okay, so I am new, too. (2 months in on Thursday, I think? I keep losing count?) But few people dive in to new things as deep as I do, or as fast.

PS - I looked up both of my opponents that destroyed me, and they each have over a 1000 losses and wins EACH. That's amazing. 2,000 games of go! I can't imagine that level of experience. Still, I need to be able to beat them. Back to the tsumego books!


Attachments:
nikwdhmos-spt88k89-8-17-2014.sgf [5.65 KiB]
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nikwdhmos-a1234 15k.sgf [1.83 KiB]
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nikwdhmos-jsweet0520-2014-08-19.sgf [1.74 KiB]
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 Post subject: Re: SamT's Study Journal - A Beginner's Journey
Post #45 Posted: Tue Aug 19, 2014 1:48 pm 
Honinbo
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SamT wrote:
I looked up both of my opponents that destroyed me, and they each have over a 1000 losses and wins EACH. That's amazing. 2,000 games of go! I can't imagine that level of experience.
Hi Sam,

Amazing is not first word that comes to mind.

Without looking at their moves, some potential explanations:

  • Their level is much higher than their ~15kyu rank (sandbaggers);
  • They absolutely don't care about improving at Go —
    they merely play mindless Go for fun;
  • Each account is not one person; rather, it's a Go salon or club,
    and the public computer is shared by tens or hundreds of members.
  • Many IGS accounts have over 10,000 or even 20,000 games.
    Yes, that's ten to twenty thousand. These are Go salon accounts.
    It took me about 12 years — I just recently played my 1,000th Rated IGS game.
    Think about this for a moment. :)

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 Post subject: Re: SamT's Study Journal - A Beginner's Journey
Post #46 Posted: Tue Aug 19, 2014 3:19 pm 
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:shock: Well, then... Good to know. If my random sampling holds true on IGS for the future, I will have lots of experience playing possible sandbaggers/go salons.

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 Post subject: Re: SamT's Study Journal - A Beginner's Journey
Post #47 Posted: Tue Aug 19, 2014 4:14 pm 
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One more game before I head out to pick up my wife and kiddo. (I will be glad to have them back, even if that means I can't play/study go as much anymore. Honestly, they are more fun. Lonely monkhood is not satisfying for me.)

Another very nice L19 player decided to play me and give me comments. Yay! Thank you, Nathan.



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 Post subject: Re: SamT's Study Journal - A Beginner's Journey
Post #48 Posted: Tue Aug 19, 2014 8:58 pm 
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Hi Sam,

I am not a dan, so take everything I say with a grain of salt, but I did have some comments on game 1.




Ps. I think your opponent was stronger at the opening, but you have more fighting spirit (the life and death is paying off) - in fact I think you would have won if you had played one move differently in the upper right.

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Post #49 Posted: Tue Aug 19, 2014 9:33 pm 
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Hi Sam, S2W,

About the comments in post 48, ( game 1, vs. nikwdhmos ) :

:w10: the game move, jumping out to F5, is good.
It has to do with :w2: on Q4.
We must always look at the whole board,
not just a local consideration ( D10 empty. )
After :w10: jumps out to F5, W has two good follow-up directions:
D6 direction to pressure B's corner,
and M3 direction to counter-pincer :b9: .
These two directions are miai for W, so this is good for W.
A pincer in the M3 direction works well with :w2: on Q4.

Of course, the suggestion for :w10: to jump into 3-3 is
also playable, and certainly not a mistake at these levels.
Good to study the game move :w10: and its meanings.

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Post #50 Posted: Tue Aug 19, 2014 9:47 pm 
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Hi Sam,

Game 1, vs. nikwdhmos:

:w12: this is completely wrong. You need to reply to :b11: ,
otherwise you allow B to hane at F2.
A simply local reply is drop to F2 yourself.
As a jump ( G7 ), :w12: also has shape problems —
it has weaknesses.

:b13: promptly punishes your :w12: mistake.

:w20: terrible. "empty triangle". Locally, other moves
are better, for example, H5.
But we can already see a trend: you are following your opponent around.

:b23: - :w24: - :b25: standard bad habit for B.
All B has done here is to force W to fix W's weakness.
If B plays the push :b23: , B must follow up by cutting at E9 on :b25: .

:w28: it's good that you fixed the E9 cut.

:b29: not good.

:w30: soft. W is strong locally, you can hane-block at F11 —
very powerful.

:b33: bad. Similar mistake as :b29: .

:w34: wrong shape. Just extend to M15 is one proper local reply.
Your :w34: , once again, allows B to hane at M17 and link up.
Similar blind spot as :w12: .

:w36: wrong shape. Homework for you:
if :b37: hanes at N14 ( instead of o14 in the real game ),
why can you not cut at o14 on :w38: ?

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 Post subject: Re: SamT's Study Journal - A Beginner's Journey
Post #51 Posted: Wed Aug 20, 2014 12:44 am 
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Hi Sam,

I don't have time right now to edit an sgf to full comments of any game, but there is one important concept which would help you a lot. Probabaly you have heard about http://senseis.xmp.net/?DisposableStones already, but see for example these situations in games above:

Sunday game:
:w20: If you play elsewhere, b threatens to capture the two stones and you get to play elsewhere again, you should rejoice. Connecting them is *really* small.
:w44: There is no reason at all to save these two stones now, and when you try that b should aim to cut them from your corner and then it's much trouble for no gain. E.g. P17 would be much better (what would you do if black took next that instead of P16 as in the game?
:w144: This doesn't even work. Sacrifice at S13.

Game A
:b20: Don't try to save this stone, let it be. Now you just get a heavy group (son a dead one), later the stone might provide some real possibilities. And if W spends :w21: to fully capture it you get :b20: and :b22: elsewhere - very very good.

Game against Nathan
:b44: you dont have time to worry about these two "cutting" stones, consider e.g. Q6 instead. And if w then P6, take Q7. See situation at move :w48: : white is connected anyways, and you have weak stones in corner and on the outside.
:b50: can you really afford to try to save this stone too, considering you have also other groups in the area? I would tenuki. Perhaps harrass C6 stone? (at :w61 I dont get why w doesn't connect at M5 - it seems to me this captures L3 group. Perhaps I'm missing something though?
:b88: agree with Nathan

regards,
Tuukka

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 Post subject: Re: SamT's Study Journal - A Beginner's Journey
Post #52 Posted: Wed Aug 20, 2014 5:29 am 
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Thanks, everyone :) Wonderful feedback, way more than expected. I'll start digging into it now :) Maybe I'll learn better which stones to let go of.

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Post #53 Posted: Wed Aug 20, 2014 6:18 am 
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Hello Sam,

Some ideas on Game A - again I've only been playing for a year more than you so treat them as suggestions rather than hard fact.


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Post #54 Posted: Wed Aug 20, 2014 7:13 am 
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And game b


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Post #55 Posted: Wed Aug 20, 2014 8:28 am 
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S2W wrote:
Hello Sam,
Some ideas on Game A - again I've only been playing for a year more than you so treat them as suggestions rather than hard fact.


You are still many levels better than me, so at least it's usually a *better* direction. Thank you for your feedback. All of it was helpful; the Game A stuff was especially so. Nice to see different ways I could've stayed in the game.

Update: I just saw your post of the Jsweet game. Some really interesting variations there :)

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Post #56 Posted: Wed Aug 20, 2014 9:12 am 
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TIM82 and EdLee,

Great feedback from both of you.

Obviously, I need a heck of a lot of work figuring out:
1) moves that are better shape
2) which stones are disposable, which aren't

I can read "shape up" some more for #1, that might help. But #2... I am not sure how to learn this other than by doing.

I am not sure how to find drills on which stones to keep and which stones to let go of. I really could use some of those.

(preaching about Deliberate Practice, complaining hat Go's selection of drills is not broad or granular enough)

I am a firm believer in Deliberate Practice. You might call it my religion, even. My strongest skill in life is getting good, fast, at many different things.

It boils down to this:
1) Drills, drills, drills, more drills, granularly focused on the skills you need.
2) Play play play to solidify new skills.
3) Review play to identify new skills/remaining areas of weakness to do drills on.
4) Start again at 1, with a new selection of drills.

I've got drills on Life and Death.
I've got drills on Tesuji, even though I would argue that Tesuji is not one skill, but several different ones that should be drilled separately for best results.
I have shape-up, which I think has drills on shape, even though they make no sense to me yet.
I've got some drills on Yose coming in the mail (Get Strong at the Endgame)
You guys are so incredibly generous, I'm getting great reviews of my play.

It's a great cycle, but there are still gaps. The drill selection in Go, globally, in my newbie-limited opinion, is not granular or focused or broad enough to facilitate truly rapid progress.

I wish there were some drills on playing lightly, and which stones to sacrifice and which stones to keep. In fact, there might need to be several different drills in there, if there are several different skills (I honestly am too new to know). I think it would not only speed up my own forward progress, but also other beginners that practiced it.

How would one design such drills? Who could design such a thing? I have no idea.

But I know this: A better, more structured drill/training system, applied earlier and practiced every day (or even just consistently over a long period), will have wildly faster results than mere play alone.

It's been shown to be true for a wide variety of sports, many professional skills, and also: chess.

So I am sure it applies in Go, too. (I'd argue this is why Graded Go Problems for Beginners is so popular and works so well.)

Honestly, if we here in the west had superior, more granularly-focused drills and widely-published training plan regimes (like you see for half-marathon or marathon training, or even tennis), we would have more globally competitive players as well.

(/preaching)

Tenuki Drill
In order to address my tendency to follow the opponent around and stay permanently in gote, I might try a "tenuki drill" I saw online somewhere, but I am pretty sure I will end up in a lot of losses for me. It may still be worth, it tho. The drill, as described was:

You must play tenuki every move.

Like I said, it will lose me the game, most likely, but it will also probably teach me to look at the board as a whole, and look for different opportunities for mutual damage/sente. I might try this on WBaduk, where I am an ant and have not even distant dreams of success.

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Post #57 Posted: Wed Aug 20, 2014 11:52 am 
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SamT wrote:
You must play tenuki every move.
Hi Sam,
This kind of exercise is ... interesting.

In another thread, someone asked about the double approach,
and I suggested, OK, play it all the time, and see what happens.

From experience, we know some beginners play too softly, too submissively,
too defensively. For them, one advice for the time being could be Fight Like Crazy.

Of course, these are all blanket advice. As a result, the players
will die many horrible deaths. ( They may occasionally
get some good results, too, just from averages. )

If a child keeps burning himself on the stove,
and we tell him instead to always grab a frozen piece of metal,
the result is, OK, he may stop burning himself,
but he'll end up with frost bites!!!

Instinctively, we understand both extremes are bad.

Blindly following your opponent is bad.
Blind tenuki is bad.
Playing too softly is bad.
Overplaying everywhere is bad.

The common problem behind all these symptoms is this:
Not looking at the whole board correctly.
SamT wrote:
it will lose me the game, most likely, but it will also probably teach me to look at the board as a whole,
Good. Enjoy. :)

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 Post subject: Re: SamT's Study Journal - A Beginner's Journey
Post #58 Posted: Wed Aug 20, 2014 1:29 pm 
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SamT wrote:

Obviously, I need a heck of a lot of work figuring out:
1) moves that are better shape
2) which stones are disposable, which aren't

I can read "shape up" some more for #1, that might help. But #2... I am not sure how to learn this other than by doing.

I am not sure how to find drills on which stones to keep and which stones to let go of. I really could use some of those.


It's not all there is to sacrificing stones, but the examples I highlighted tried to be about situations where you built a great juicy lump (or target...) of stones doing nothing* next to your opponents strong position.

* important stones either cut your opponents stones into multiple groups which are not completely alive yet, or connect your groups / build your own position in a meaningful way. A stone or two stranded next to your opponents strenght do neither. Not even if you connect them to you other stones ( even if you mess up one potential area of your opponents by doing this, he is likely to get forcing moves chasing your stones and just build potential elsewhere with those, and you got nothing in the process, and the board got more settled).

So to sum it up: if you have stones next to opponents strong position, treat them lightly, be ready to sacrifice, unless they cut the opponents position into multiple unstable groups. If opponent spends a move to complete the capture, you get a free move elsewhere, which is probably bigger. This holds for beginning of the game. After that, keep looking whether stones which appeared elsewhere have made it interesting to utilize some previously stranded stones.

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Post #59 Posted: Thu Aug 21, 2014 11:39 am 
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I received my copy of Weiqi Dingshi Daquan last night. It's the joseki text that Hushfield and his fellow students were using in china. I started it last night, and I was a little worried, because many of the diagrams were identical to ones I had already memorized in Ishida. Then, today, I got a little further in, and started learning whole new sequences that I had not run into before. Good stuff!

It's a challenge decrypting the book, even with the miracle-that-is Google Translate (it will translate a pic from my phone!). Still, the translations themselves are way off, with the word White sometimes translated as "Since", and constant reference to "Bits" and "Bit Legislation", which I am guessing either mean move/stone, or standard move.

And there was one section that is still a mystery to me because Google was convinced it was about "loving the cars".

There were several miraculous passages that were crystal clear, with Google even translating the word to the word "tenuki". Still, it's a great book so far, and I'm only 25 diagrams in.

And I'm learning Mandarin as I go, study of which I had abandoned 2 years ago.

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Post #60 Posted: Thu Aug 21, 2014 11:40 am 
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No luck with the Tenuki drill so far. I do it for about 12 moves, and then I can't stand it anymore.

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