Road to my 100 first go loss: I ask for some commentary

[Fllecha]

Wow guys some very good thread and a lot to chew on!! Sincerely more than what I expected, and I think that is thanks to Poster like EdLee and Mattews and the others here that Beginner like me never loses enthusiasm.

I looked at the thread posted by EdLee in the spoiler and I found another mine of teaching resourses. Nice stuff, it takes time to read it, but it's worth it.

Between the good advices written here, now I have a better understanding on what does "100 loss" means, so I have to keep going because what is happening to me is what happened at the vast majority of go players.

I want to answer at Mattews on chess finals. What I meant is that you see club trainer that (correctly) teach basic chess finals (Q+K vs K, R+K vs K, B+B+K vs king, basic pawn finals etc..) but then they bore the audience with particular and millimetric finals that happens once in a lifetime or long and boring rook +pawn vs rook finals that are good/understandable only when you are at least intermediate imo. When they are in game, since they didn't know anything about opening, they play hyppopotamus opening and KIA opening to avoid theory but eventually they are almost always wiped off because that habit leads to passive play and usually bad middle-game positions. So what I wanted to say is that undoubitably chess finals are important, but opening is more important as a beginner

So that was my question: how to avoid bad starting fuseki? You guys kindly answered basically saying that only experience and reviews can make the difference, and I understand that because go is way much harder/complex than chess. I remember the sentence "Go is a fluid game". Chess is surely more tactical and thus easier to play in many spots.

I have more confidence on my possibility now: the plan is to reach 100 bot game and then move on KGS or Pandanet and start playing humans.

I made a personal file of all this thread and at the end of 100th game I'll stick here for all beginner that want to start.
Tonight another game for sure.

Thank you so much, I have no word to say more than that, but belive me I want to embrace all for your support.

[EdLee]

how to avoid bad fuseki?

Hi Fllecha,

This is yet another all-time FAQ by beginners and kyu levels.

Short, blunt reply: at your current levels,
don't worry too much about the opening.

Longer, blabbing version:

This is not to say the opening is not important,
or that it's useless or uninteresting to study. Far from it.

Hey, if you are really very interested in the opening, go for it.

But, my experience has been that the return on investment in
studying the opening is, relatively, substantially lower than
the ROI in other areas in Go. At least for most kyu levels.

( Yes, eventually, it'll be very important to study. )

As long as you avoid big blunders in the opening, you're OK. For now.
( A natural follow-up question: what constitutes big blunders ?
Well, post your games for reviews and let's find out together.
OK, here's an example: if you misread and play out a bad ladder for 40 moves, that might do it.
Notice this example has absolutely nothing to do with any generalized, grandiose opening theory, but everything to do with your reading skills: one move at a time! )

[EdLee]

the plan is to reach 100 bot game and then move on KGS or Pandanet and start playing humans.

Hi Fllecha,

This also happens to be a 'strategy' shared by other beginners.
I don't have the statistics, so I have no idea what percentage of
beginners adopt this kind of 'plan' in the beginning.
But, you're definitely not alone with this idea.

Short & blunt: no need to restrict your first 100 games to be 100% with bots.
You're free to play humans as well. Mix it up.

Also, your first 100 games need not be all 19x19, either.
Smaller boards -- say, 9x9 and 13x13 -- are also OK.

[oren]

So that was my question: how to avoid bad starting fuseki? You guys kindly answered basically saying that only experience and reviews can make the difference, and I understand that because go is way much harder/complex than chess. I remember the sentence "Go is a fluid game". Chess is surely more tactical and thus easier to play in many spots.

Opening Theory Made Easy is a recommended book that will at least help with some ideas.

Generally hop online and ask people (if you have no one local. That is even better). There is a lifein19x19 room on KGS with some people who can help point things out.

[Charles Matthews]

I ask EdLee/Mattews to help me on this: I decided that I would play 100 games and if I can't find improvements I will definitively quit with go. I don't want to quit but it's frustrating be a beginner forever.

GAME 14

The first real mistake you make in the game is . So, not too bad.

The point about is that it is from the wrong side. Simply coming out with P5 is much better. White will have two weak groups, which is always troublesome. By , White is well organised here. Locally, White's plan worked.

is the wrong choice, I think. Just play N17 and take sente. is clearly small.

is on the fifth line. It seems you need to invade right now. If you play C11, you can play C8 or C14 next (i.e. miai).

IN GO: I NEVER saw a go book with a simple and clear set of patterns to help understanding fuseki. Most of go books (Opening theory made easy or the direction of play) are undoubitably good books but you can't teach go (imo obv) that way. You take a position, you say what is best there and gg. But you turn on playing go and you will never find a similar position, the complexity of the game is too big. I study, but it's REALLY HARD to apply what learned in practice.

Yes, but the thinking you are missing is middle game , not fuseki. Your opening formations are quite adequate to your level.

Why nobody set up a fuseki repertoire for black with pre-made plans against the most typical white responses?

Because it wouldn't make people much stronger?

Actually the right question is "how do I learn about frameworks?" You play framework openings, but there are other kinds.

2) When I play I noticed that I can't understand when to play for territory and when to fight. Ok I know that there isn't a short answer obv but I really cant understand how to improve. That is: I watch a lot of strong player games and most of them go like this: they put 4 stones in the 4 corners and then begins a fight around a corner, ignoring the rest of the board. Then one players tenuki and starts a fight on another corner. More or less the same for the remaining 2 corners and then center play. The board is filled and score counting...

IF I PLAY THIS: I begin a fight in the corner, my opponent builds a big moyo I lose.

How to improve my game on that topic?

Some plays in a framework are super-efficient. You have to enter the framework before that happens.

So the question are:

A) How to seriously improve? No magic sticks of course, but how to exit from beginner status? Is it (longterm) sufficent to play 100 games, study the review and try to apply it? Is this the normal pattern to became at least intermediate player?

B) If after 100 games I still have great problems (like the ones I made in the following game) is time to quit go? Can you estimate a dead line for "understanding" go? (In chess: if after a year, playing at least 10 games a day you still have 1500-1600 rating is time to quit for example, you will rarely be a good intermediate)

C) Doing tsumego may help, but I think it's an intermediate stuff. I do at least 10 tsumego a day but I didn't recall a time when it was useful, I have bigger problems on the fuseki. I decided to quit them. It's like when chess teacher say TO BEGINNERS "Study the final". I usually say "You FIRST have to ARRIVE in the final. Study opening."

My beginner's book has five pages on fuseki theory, nine pages on middlegame theory, out of about 190: so I think "theory" is not so useful. You try to play games of "mobility", which is understandable against a bot. You need to add some so-called "strategic concepts".

Your go looks OK to me, but it currently appears rather narrowly based.

[Fllecha]

Short & blunt: no need to restrict your first 100 games to be 100% with bots.
You're free to play humans as well. Mix it up.

This is the idea (not sure if it's correct obv )

In this game you need to think a lot in the beginning and you have to evaluate some variation and have the time to try to understand why it's correct and why it's incorrect and for example which are big or small moves. If you play humans (of course with the clock) you have to focus on time also. So you aren't free to spend say 8 min on a move because later you may be in hurry to save a weak group and miss the point because of zeitnot. In chess is the same btw: before playing online one imo has to practice a lot with CALIBRATED LEVEL bot (since even the worst chess bot plasy at grand master level or little under it, you have to set a proper level and try to find tactical chaches and won easy game, just to practice) just to clean out the very beginner phase. In chess say 95% of online games are under 5 minutes each so basically it's almost all instinct, no time to think.

I actually played some go games online against humans, and in some won position (which rarely appeared) I lost on time and this tilted me at not-human level, so I quit online for the moment

Second: It's relatively hard to find an even game quickly (not impossible obv) and I personally hate the handicap system (expecially when I have the handicap stones) even if it is perfectly logic. That's obv my limit of course but if I am 19k I prefer play a 19 kyu and not a 10 kyu with 9 stone handicap. It's complicated this point, since I say that hadicap stone is perfectly fair but I hope you understand the analogy with chess: it's unacceptable give a knight or a rook handicap to a beginner even if it creates an even game. I love pure games.
Obv when I will play online I'll surely accept the handicap stones.. but not now.

Third: Self esteem. When I open and play in a random chess site or a random backgammon site I am in the top 25%-30%, more or less. It's hard for me enter in a random go site and being in the "top" 80%-90% I want to enter at least in the lower 50% at least, and play acceptable games, without big blunders, mainly to not waste opponent's time in a one-way game. Go is at least 4-5 times longer than chess

Also, your first 100 games need not be all 19x19, either.
Smaller boards -- say, 9x9 and 13x13 -- are also OK.

Done.
Every time I publish a 19x19 game I have played at least 4 games against Igowin just to warm up and train life and death and fighting. Now I gonna play my 19x19 See you in a few hours

[Fllecha]

Hi guys. It's only because of your support that I played another passable game and won with white. I passed some bad moments but finally I had a compensation for my last two bad games.

The great win is that this time I attacked a weak group from weak to strong and I managed to kill it: it's good when you see that you apply what you learned few games before.

Of course the road is still long long long.

GAME 15

[EdLee]

Hi Fllecha, see how others also worry too much about the opening: Posts 24, 25 .

[Charles Matthews]

...long, long ...

Of course. But I think go is actually a great game to study.

The bot is not superhuman.

Small criticisms, where your perception lapsed. At , C16 is quite nice. And you can play 136 at A14, which is even nicer.

[tekesta]

Wow guys some very good thread and a lot to chew on!! Sincerely more than what I expected, and I think that is thanks to Poster like EdLee and Mattews and the others here that Beginner like me never loses enthusiasm.

I looked at the thread posted by EdLee in the spoiler and I found another mine of teaching resourses. Nice stuff, it takes time to read it, but it's worth it.

Between the good advices written here, now I have a better understanding on what does "100 loss" means, so I have to keep going because what is happening to me is what happened at the vast majority of go players.

That's why I said 100 games is a minimum. At first, for every won game there will be 7 or 10, at most, lost games. Of course this ratio will shrink as you improve. At your best you should win anywhere between 50-70% of your games. Fifty percent is closer to the reality for most Go players, whether amateur or professional. Only a really talented player, such as Lee Chang-ho, Lee Sedol, or even Iyama Yuta has a won games percentage of over 50% over a long period of time, and this is when playing against opponents of a high caliber.

So that was my question: how to avoid bad starting fuseki? You guys kindly answered basically saying that only experience and reviews can make the difference, and I understand that because go is way much harder/complex than chess. I remember the sentence "Go is a fluid game". Chess is surely more tactical and thus easier to play in many spots.

Your fuseki is OK, but you have to know how to use those strategic placements to their fullest advantage. This means learning middle game basics. Removing available space needed for your opponent's group to develop a base while establishing a secure base for your own groups is an important middle game consideration. Attack and defence is a central concept in the middle game. It basically boils down to reducing the space available for your opponent's groups while enlarging your own, or threatening to kill one of your opponent's groups so that he/she will have to abandon development of his/her whole-board strategy, return to it and fix up weaknesses, or face a big loss that will be hard to make up for as the game progresses. One VERY important proverb in Go is, "Urgent points before big points."

I have more confidence on my possibility now: the plan is to reach 100 bot game and then move on KGS or Pandanet and start playing humans.

If you prefer it can be a mixture of bots and human opponents. In fact, I would suggest playing a few games against human opponents before reaching the 100-game mark. Humans and bots play differently and experiencing games against human opponents in anticipation of playing mostly against them is good practice, IMO.

I think you will find stronger opponents on Pandanet or a Korean server such as Oro or Tygem. I have heard about and even experienced bad things on KGS, despite the popularity of this server. (I have a KGS account under "chincharra". I will have to see if it is still active.) For one, it's difficult to get a game if your rank number has a question mark (?) next to it and some players there will often leave a game unfinished whenever defeat is imminent. As well, there are the "sandbaggers", which are players that are much stronger than their rank indicates and will give you a nasty surprise if you get fooled by the number. (Sandbagging can be considered a free lesson in high-level Go, though ) There are respectful players on KGS as well and these outnumber the "prick" ones, but they do not always appear immediately and you might go through a few "prick" players before finding one willing to play an honest game with you. KGS has its good points - such as professional lectures and teaching rooms - and so it might suit your preference, but if you are looking for serious games and an abundance of well-behaved players, there are better servers.

If you do not mind turn-based games, here is a good server: http://wuzheng.me This server is based in China, so many of the players on this server are stronger than the average Go player in a Western country.

I made a personal file of all this thread and at the end of 100th game I'll stick here for all beginner that want to start.
Tonight another game for sure.

Thank you so much, I have no word to say more than that, but belive me I want to embrace all for your support.

I will give my input on it.

[oren]

I actually played some go games online against humans, and in some won position (which rarely appeared) I lost on time and this tilted me at not-human level, so I quit online for the moment

The advantages of playing humans is they'll make similar blunders that you do. Getting used to time is something you must have to do in chess as well.

[tekesta]

Well, I did not see much wrong with your game. Charles Matthews was right, though. at C16 expands eye space, which is how one makes territory in that situation. This move at C16 makes miai of D16 and B15. Miai means that one or the other is a good choice. If black plays on D16, you can take B15 and expand your eye space. If Black plays on B15, you can play at D16 and threaten either to capture the Black stone on E16 or push through at D15 and reduce Black's territory. White 136 at A14 would give you an extra point of territory. Black plays at A13, you connect at A15, and Black has to connect at B13. Otherwise, you cut at this point for double atari and you can even threaten to make use of the White stone at E13 to further reduce Black's territory. At this point in the game Black's group in the top left has weaknesses that were eventually exploited. White 148 at H13 was needed to save the 6 White stones. Otherwise Black plays here and the best you can do is play at H12 to connect. Connecting at G13 would've just meant the capture of 7 White stones. White 152 at J9 was another necessary move. White 154 at F19 is good, but this move should be at G19 to take a point from Black; at this point you are far ahead in territory, so retaining sente is not necessary.

Killing the Black group at the top right was a big gain. Congrats

[Fllecha]

Hi all,

Very tough game today, I lost by 8 and probably I missed something in the endgame... much obliged if you tell my what were my errors. I killed another group and that was a lot of fun, but again I lost control of his big up-left moyo: fortunately this time there were some reducing tricks and I managed to reduce, but again I made an error like the one I made in the two infamous games. It's clear that's a lesson that I haven't yet internalized: ALWAYS LOOKS AT HIS MOYO BEFORE THEY APPEARS

I missed some 3-3 invasion somewhere, can you please tell my when it was the right moment to do that?

Just to tell you, I was waiting for a friend and I played some 19x19 games against Igowin. A month ago I was almost never able to stay around 10k and now I destroyed it winning 5 games in a row with 30-70 points of difference reaching 4 kyu. It means nothing obv, and I perfectly know that rank give by Igowin is completely overrated, but winning that way gave me some feelings that my go improved. Little satisfactions, pleas understand that moment .

GAME 16

[EdLee]

Hi Fllecha,

- , then tenuki: R9 remains a weakness.
The net result here is you've made Black stronger, and yourself weaker. Bad for you.

This is not small, and you got poisoned by some bad teaching/advice/proverbs about 'pushing from behind'.
'Pushing from behind' -- as a local shape, is like atari -- it's neutral.
There's nothing inherently good or bad about it.
If you push from behind and the result is bad for you, DON'T do it.
If you push from behind and the result is OK or good for you, it's OK !

[Charles Matthews]

It's clear that's a lesson that I haven't yet internalized: ALWAYS LOOKS AT HIS MOYO BEFORE THEY APPEARS

Right!

Just to tell you, I was waiting for a friend and I played some 19x19 games against Igowin. A month ago I was almost never able to stay around 10k and now I destroyed it winning 5 games in a row with 30-70 points of difference reaching 4 kyu. It means nothing obv, and I perfectly know that rank give by Igowin is completely overrated, but winning that way gave me some feelings that my go improved.

Yes, you are improving.

GAME 16

I missed some 3-3 invasion somewhere, can you please tell my when it was the right moment to do that?

The corners went 50-50: two each. But Black's were larger.

At you get an option to play D17. This is what I would often do, as White in a nine-stone game. really is big. Your other chances come in the top right, after . There are some interesting ideas around the clamp at R18.

General comments. The opening wasn't great for you.

Play this at E4 (possibly F4) because of the stone to right. You become too low here.

isn't too good. I would play M6 first to see what Black will do. But if you play it, O10 next is really compulsory, from the point of view of shape.

Ha-ha, handicap go. I would be thinking about N13 or D17 here.

is passive: this is where your problems really start. You must push up at F4.

By sacrificing on the top side, Black has managed to do well on the rest of the board.

is reasonable. My instinct would be to play at H8.

is pretty big. There is a reading problem in the corner: does R18 do anything? (Shouldn't work.) So the endgame is Q19 and Black should answer R18; then R19. This is your sente, and you missed it in the game.

So when are you going to attack Black in the lower right?

J8?