Life In 19x19

Oh give me a break guys, the Alabamans are going to get touchy with the rest of us about their history?

As someone who's regularly (mis)identified as Persian/Middle-eastern, it's sad to say, but it'll probably keep me from wandering too much in the deep south (Big cities are fine, but I just would rather not tempt fate). A sense of humor helps, when I see people who are humorless about a comment about black and white people playing together, I get the feeling like it's still a problem down there. It doesn't exactly put me at ease.

shapenaji wrote:Oh give me a break guys, the Alabamans are going to get touchy with the rest of us about their history?

As someone who's regularly (mis)identified as Persian/Middle-eastern, it's sad to say, but it'll probably keep me from wandering too much in the deep south (Big cities are fine, but I just would rather not tempt fate). A sense of humor helps, when I see people who are humorless about a comment about black and white people playing together, I get the feeling like it's still a problem down there. It doesn't exactly put me at ease.

Wow, all I can say is wow.

See, I like to view people as individuals. So when and enthusiastic guy is willing to work (like a dog quite frankly) for a year to give the go community an event - I want to say thank you very much.

What I do not do, is look at his postal code and think, hmm, I wonder if he is one of them with "their history".

I mean it is really, really remarkable. I have read reams of posts from you about how the AGA needs to break down barriers and let folks in, that the AGA needs to be welcoming to everyone. I thought you stood for letting the new guy in, do not worry about when you joined or if you have ever played in an AGA event - the important thing is you are here now and interested and we want to grab that interest.

But...if you are one of them with "their history", you are apparently out of luck. Just how big of a South are you defining, with your Congress boycott? I mean Mason Dixon or is Virginia ok. You know we had a pretty good Congress in North Carolina. What exactly does a Southern go player have to do pass muster with you?

Seriously, Rodney King was in California and people died in Boston regarding bussing and there is intolerance everywhere. I am not in denial, I am simply judging people by the content of their character and not which side their state took in the Civil War.

Speaking publicly as a moderator, Joaz immediately raised this for discussion when it was reported by a user. I have to admit, I don't have a problem with the original post. It seems to me like Joaz is a) familiar with a distasteful past, and b) has come to terms with it well enough to approach it with humour. It seems clear to me that no offense was intended, nor was any genuine reassurance sought, and I personally confess to finding it witty. To me, that the situation can be joked about implies that it is all thankfully in the past, which to me therefore has positive connotations.

I'm happy leaving things as they lie, and I'm sure Joaz is also happy making adjustments if people feel particularly strongly about it, but I'm inclined to agree very much with shapenaji. The fact that people do make a fuss about it says a lot about race insecurity that I think there is any need for, particularly on this forum which has a really particularly good record for all that sort of thing.

Horibe wrote:...

Seriously, Rodney King was in California and people died in Boston regarding bussing and there is intolerance everywhere. I am not in denial, I am simply judging people by the content of their character and not which side their state took in the Civil War.

I think the comment needs to be read in the context of the thread. I think that the point was not to "exclude people from the south" from anything, as you seem to be implying. Rather, I think that the point he was trying to make was that some people on this forum were overreacting to Joaz's comment.

By the way, I'm not taking any sides on the matter - I just think it's a point unrelated to that which you are trying to identify.

Kirby wrote:

Horibe wrote:...

Seriously, Rodney King was in California and people died in Boston regarding bussing and there is intolerance everywhere. I am not in denial, I am simply judging people by the content of their character and not which side their state took in the Civil War.

I think the comment needs to be read in the context of the thread. I think that the point was not to "exclude people from the south" from anything, as you seem to be implying. Rather, I think that the point he was trying to make was that some people on this forum were overreacting to Joaz's comment.

By the way, I'm not taking any sides on the matter - I just think it's a point unrelated to that which you are trying to identify.

Kirby - I suppose you could read shapenaji's post as saying people are overeacting to Joaz's post. But the only fair reading of those remarks, taken in context, is that people should not be worried about hurting Alabamian's feelings, because, with their history - they deserve to have to give such reassurances and defend themselves. Because the problem is real, according to the post, and shapenaji is not going to wander around in the deep south.

So is it excluding? Well you certainly considered asking a go player to play 10 games as excluding.

Yet Joaz's "funny" post mocks the Southern dialect and states "Sounds ok, by me, as long as you can prove your not a racist" And Shapenaji chimes in - "As an Alabaman, with your history, you cannot complain about the request"

In my view - that is a hard pill to swallow, and I would consider myself excluded. I should not have to defend myself in that manner, whether because of the color of my skin, my religion or what state I live in.

Horibe wrote:
Wow, all I can say is wow.

See, I like to view people as individuals. So when and enthusiastic guy is willing to work (like a dog quite frankly) for a year to give the go community an event - I want to say thank you very much.

What I do not do, is look at his postal code and think, hmm, I wonder if he is one of them with "their history".

I mean it is really, really remarkable. I have read reams of posts from you about how the AGA needs to break down barriers and let folks in, that the AGA needs to be welcoming to everyone. I thought you stood for letting the new guy in, do not worry about when you joined or if you have ever played in an AGA event - the important thing is you are here now and interested and we want to grab that interest.

But...if you are one of them with "their history", you are apparently out of luck. Just how big of a South are you defining, with your Congress boycott? I mean Mason Dixon or is Virginia ok. You know we had a pretty good Congress in North Carolina. What exactly does a Southern go player have to do pass muster with you?

Seriously, Rodney King was in California and people died in Boston regarding bussing and there is intolerance everywhere. I am not in denial, I am simply judging people by the content of their character and not which side their state took in the Civil War.

See Kirby and topazg's posts. I am not against Alabama holding a congress, my comments were entirely directed at the outrage toward Joaz's statement. "Congress Boycott"? I never said anything of the sort.

Yes, lots of places have an ugly history with racism, but most wouldn't get so touchy about the association. I think if you said something similar regarding the upcoming LA congress, you wouldn't get the knee-jerk outrage you have here. Something of the form "As long as white stones and black stones are only fighting on the board", I highly doubt you'd offend many Californians.

My family is from the south, I wouldn't boycott it, the only point of my statement (which apparently topazg and Kirby saw right away), was that Alabama has no reason to be touchy about that statement if there are no problems.

I'd rather not see this thread turn into a "your state did worse stuff than mine" thread... I'm sure Joaz meant it in jest but I agree it's not very nice to insult a state willing to host a go congress. As for sensitivity, shapenaji's conclusion isn't warranted-- if you're constantly accused of something you feel is not true (any longer), you get sensitive to it after a while. Finally, I don't think shapenaji said anything about boycotting anything.

Topazg, I'm not sure how well America's racial tensions are understood overseas (not accusing you of anything, just stating I genuinely don't know). Joaz's comment is something you laugh at if your close friend says it ('cause you know they don't mean it in a bad way) and wince at if your grandpa says it (because you're not sure). (says the 28yo white male) Not the safest thing to say on a forum, but who says you should always be safe?

Edit: ninja'd, still feel like posting it...

I agree shapenaji did not say boycott, he simply said he would not venture into the deep south, which I took to mean he would not go to a Birmingham Congress.

The logic of shapenaji's last remark suggest that their are no racial problems in California - because they can take a joke. I echo danielthesmith's remark - there are different reasons you can be touchy about a remark other than its truth. Furthermore, to my knowledge, no one from Alabama has proven themselves to be touchy about the remark.

I simply think it was wrong to even jokingly suggest a defense on this issue was warranted, and I thought entering an element of race into any discussion was a questionable move by an admin.

Horibe wrote:I agree shapenaji did not say boycott, he simply said he would not venture into the deep south, which I took to mean he would not go to a Birmingham Congress.

The logic of shapenaji's last remark suggest that their are no racial problems in California - because they can take a joke. I echo danielthesmith's remark - there are different reasons you can be touchy about a remark other than its truth. Furthermore, to my knowledge, no one from Alabama has proven themselves to be touchy about the remark.

I simply think it was wrong to even jokingly suggest a defense on this issue was warranted, and I thought entering an element of race into any discussion was a questionable move by an admin.

No, I said I wouldn't wander much in the deep south, and that larger areas (ALA, cities, where go congresses would be held) were fine, I'm just a little leery of the rural deep south.

There are racial problems everywhere (Including, perhaps especially, in California), and joking is a lighthearted way of asking the question "How's that whole racism thing?".

There's also a problem with the logic of your counter argument,

I said:

Not being able to take a joke implies a problem

this is not logically equivalent to:

Being able to take a joke implies there is not a problem

The only other thing I'll say is this:
There's a lot of talk nowadays about living in a "post-racial" society. But as long as people look different, and have different cultures, there will always be friction. Everyone is going to have a gut response to something different, that's just human nature. But if you know that you're going to have that gut reaction, then you can start dealing with it.

I am excited to hear about the Birmingham Congress, and am eager to hear more about it. While it's still a few years off, I'm already hoping I'll be able to make it and have started working on talking a friend into it. He went to the other big U of A campus, but thinks he's got friends living in Birmingham currently. Thanks for your work in helping with it, Balmung, and I look forwards to hearing more!

I took Joaz's statement to be tongue in cheek reference to the history of the South, rather than the attitudes of anyone involved in a 2012 Birminigham congress. For that reason, I didn't see a reason for offesnse. The problem is always the ambiguity of any particular joke or reaction, and that cuts both ways--just as the original joke is ambiguous, the reaction is ambiguous.

I think Southerners are entitled to not automatically be viewed as racists. I'm not trying to ask for pity, but it is true that there are a lot of anti-southern stereotypes out there. On the other hand, we're not entitled to avoid any mention of our past, or hide behind the know-nothing attitude that "other places have had problems too".

But that leaves a lot of miscommunication possible. Someone could think Joaz's comment reflected a stereotype* of contemporary southerners, and therefore react badly. And then that reaction is itself subject to misinterpretation--did they think Joaz was stereotyping, or are they the kind of person who wants to whitewash the South's history? In both cases, I prefer to be charitable, at least in this case.

* Well, this is complicated, because it's no stereotype that if you go down South, you'll see a lot of confederate flags. Not all our problems are in the past by any stretch of the imagination. But it's a stereotype when it's applied too broadly. Odds are that the guy from the South who visits L19 winces when he sees that flag.

hyperpape wrote:I took Joaz's statement to be...*snip*

I must admit, in looking back at this post I now feel almost silly in writing this but nevertheless......

Perhaps this discussion could be continued somewhere else? I feel like there was a really interesting and productive discussion going on about possible locations for go congresses, and while this discussion may be intrinsically worthwhile, doesn't necessarily contribute to the topic at hand. Maybe there could be a thread started in off topic for this or something, and we can continue discussing the potential congress locations here?

Mef wrote:...we can continue discussing the potential congress locations here?

I second this.

As someone who holds absolutely no affiliation to the city, and only marginal affiliation to the state (roughly translated I probably wouldn't be the one to set it up (= ) - what about St. Louis? It's a nice town, several schools in the area that might be able to provide gaming areas, there are places to go sightseeing...Though there's also Kansas City, which offers great barbecue....

Mef wrote:As someone who holds absolutely no affiliation to the city, and only marginal affiliation to the state (roughly translated I probably wouldn't be the one to set it up (= ) - what about St. Louis? It's a nice town, several schools in the area that might be able to provide gaming areas, there are places to go sightseeing...Though there's also Kansas City, which offers great barbecue....

Wow, we've already had a fight over the merits of Alabama vs. North Carolina barbecue on this thread - you trying to get it locked?