Life In 19x19

When i sugested that move i already predicted black would do something like this.
In my opinion what ever move we play play will most likely ignore it and play the corner, because we need more stones to actually kill the stone at 1. If we play the joseki black can still break away from it and easily get a living shape or connect at the center, if the joseki is played that probably later black would aim at a and get the top like we originally intended to.
With a pincer we can still get the top left corner and build up the top. if our stone were at the star point i would even consider the three space away at f, but since this hasn´t happened i´m not sure if it is ok to play it.

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[go]$$cm1 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . b d f . . . . . . a . . . |
$$ | . . O , 1 . c e . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Arg. Black team I hate you!! 6.500 characters of analysis for nothing!!
Anyway, about the current situation, I'm fine with the avalanche and know a few continuations, however I don't think black will play it. If you look at this joseki you can see that black's last play is exactly at my invasion point in previous post (and you haven't given me a satisfactory answer as to how to handle it yet) Aditionally your play at a is very low. We might have to considre something like this to have at least some stones in the middel (of course playing like this would ruin our chances at invading at but I don't know what kind of chance an invasion has with the black tengen stone.

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[go]$$Wcm6 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 3 1 2 . C . . 8 . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , X 6 4 . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . 7 . 5 . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

My point being: if we tenuki to the last corner we should stop thinking about the top right as "our corner" and more of an approach move that was already in place. (I was starting to feel good about this game after several hours of analysis, but someone on the black team is just playing crazy)

Some thoughts about my nomination: I don't think tenuki is an option. If black get's another move on the top left it is starting to look baaad However, I really don't know any great responses. I will shortly go over some pincers before nomination my move.

The one space low:
We could hope for this where black plays and we connect our group and get a huge corner. I'm not counting on it though, because they get 3 try's and someone might guess a (they could go crazy and play or the 33 point or something similar where I then would be completely out of my depth ) That would separate us in 2 groups and remember: black has tengen.

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[go]$$Wcm6 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 7 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 4 3 6 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O 5 X 8 . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . a . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . C . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

The one space high:
The one space high looks something like this and is pretty straight forward. We get the corner and something at the side while black pincers (and probably kills) our other stone

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[go]$$Wcm6 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 5 4 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . X . 1 . 8 , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . 3 . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

The two space high:
This might be the pincer I'd be looking at. It is not as close to white and therefor not that much at rich of being counter pincered (and dying), it also works more with our 4-5 stone. I don't really know any josekis for this one (or any high pincer really ) but there are some complicated lines if black plays the large knights move or the 3-5 attachment (at least I think that are blacks standard responses) We could get luck and win something

Long story short, I nominate the outside attachment E15. It builds up some influence and black is less likely to get a good invasion point for our 4-5 point.

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[go]$$Wcm6 With a or b as continuation
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . b . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , X . 4 . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . 3 1 2 . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

In my opinion what ever move we play play will most likely ignore it and play the corner, because we need more stones to actually kill the stone at 1.

Going with that logic you could look at J16 the high chinese (I posted some thoughts on it already)

Alright, so far I have the following suggestions:

E17 (typical attachment) - robinz
E15 (outside attachment) - Mnemonic

Have you decided on what you'd like to suggest, Rafa?

As a side note to the team, I'm also still thinking about what I would do in this situation. Once I answer that, I'll be better able to pick a move. Some good ideas so far, and you're all putting some thought in, which I'm very happy to see.

i apologize i ended up forgetting G17 would be the move i would play

Something I just thought of. Every time I was trying to read out what would happen with the pincers I got a bad result for black. Then I remembered this.

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[go]$$Wcm6 (Normal continuation of this joseki is at a)
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 3 2 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , X . . 5 . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

This is a very interesting result and I am not sure if it is better than my other nomination, but is seems better than any pincer I can think of. This explodes into horrible fighting because white is very weak, but we would be fighting on our turf again (which is at least my strategic goal at the moment)

I think I'm going to go with this (sorry captain, but I feel like we have to take initiative) I will change my nomination to D14

After a lot of thought, I chose this move. I'm going to go over each suggestion a little later when I have time, but for now some basic thoughts.

Tengen is a center play. To me, that means that Black expects to play a fighting game. All ladders are in Black's favour, and a running fight could end badly for us if we start it early on.

A pincer gives Black the early fight they want. Why play their game?

Another thought to consider: we shouldn't need to play "clever" or complicated sequences to win. Calm play and good reading should be our mantra. I'm not saying Mnemonic's joseki choice isn't interesting, and it may be how we decide to play ... I haven't decided if I like it or not for this game, but it is very interesting.

Okay, where do you think Black will play now? Black could tenuki, but I somehow feel like they won't.

Right so my thoughts run like this.
We prioritise by playing urgent then big moves and clearly the marked stone is urgently in need of settling but looking at the rest of the board there are a lot of big opening moves to play(a-e are all big moves worth considering and the approach at f/g will require a response from him and probably build a bit of a black wall to neutralise the white stones on the left.

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[go]$$cm1 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . e . . . . f . . . . |
$$ | . . O , B . . . . , . . . . g , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . d . . . . . X . . . . . a . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . c . . . . . b . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

All these big moves means sente is important so the obvious settling move of:

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[go]$$cm1 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , X . . 7 . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

seems slow. I want to protect that stone in a way that requires a local response. So I nominate the play at E14 followed by something like the sequence here:

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[go]$$cm1 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , X . . . . , . . . . b , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O 1 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 2 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 4 . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

7 at (a) or (b).

I agree with Sinks general ideas, but I'd play another move:

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[go]$$cm1 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , X . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . B . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I expect something like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wcm9 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , X . . . 4 , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . 1 B . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 3 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

blocking from the other side doesn't work, i think

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[go]$$Wcm9 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , X . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . 4 B 1 3 . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Both of the suggestions so far result in nice black walls, but they both face right at white's q15 stone while white's left group will be facing a wide open side, a bottom left corner that has yet to see a stone, and a top left corner that is still available for the taking with a move like d17. Not exactly my idea of a good time...

So here is my alternative:

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[go]$$Bcm7 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , X . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

This aims to go ahead and take a bit of the corner, strengthen our group, and prepare for approaching the top-right or to take the bottom left corner and approach or invade white's position on the left. It doesn't directly try to make influence and work with tengen, but the plan would be to do so after ensuring white doesn't just get a massive amount of territory in exchange for our influence. I just can't concede that much to white without trying to make some territory of our own. I'd expect something like the following:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bcm7 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . b . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 2 1 3 . . . x . . . . . . . x . . . |
$$ | . . O , X . . . . , . . . . x , . . . |
$$ | . a c . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O x . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . x . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . x . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

w probably takes the a or b point (c seems like a mistake as it makes b sente for black), after which we could consider one of the x points.

The game move is about the only move in this position.

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[go]$$cm1 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , X . . . . , . . . . b , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O 1 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 2 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 4 . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

The above forces white to take fourth line territory in good shape, while giving us not nearly enough in exchange.

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[go]$$Wcm9 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , X . . . 4 , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . 1 B . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 3 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

This suggestion is pushing from behind on the fourth line ... which is rarely a good idea. It also removes all aji from white's shape, making them perfectly strong.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bcm7 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 2 1 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , X . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

We're going to play out like this, which I'm fine with. I'm debating what I want to do with the top side afterward. We might tenuki this if there's a good, big suggestion as we have the tengen stone for backup. Even then, this joseki is good for black according to Hwang In-seong. Every time he reviewed an insei league game with this joseki, his first words were, "this is not a pattern." Black's shape is better than the territory white gets (for contrast, compare with the simple attach underneath joseki).

There's also the option for white of the two space high pincer after 3, but it won't work out well for them with our tengen stone offering support. We're begging for a fighting game.

OK, I guess one of us White players needs to get the ball rolling and start discussing move choices here. Apologies for me not doing so sooner - to be honest, I feel a bit out of depth here (this isn't a joseki I've ever come across), and have also not been feeling too well for the past few days, which doesn't make me want to sit down in front of the go board and look at lots of detailed lines.

But still, black's latest move is an attachment, and there are usually a fairly limited number of sensible responses to those. Let's look in more detail:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bcm7 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . a 1 b . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . c O d X . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

- a to d here are the stereotypical moves to consider in response to an attachment (ignoring the other local stones for now), in the sense that one of them will be correct over 90% of the time.

Well, here we can instantly rule out b, I think, as black's cut at d is going to lose us one of our 2 stones. We can't capture black's C17 first either:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wc Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 5 4 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 3 X 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . x O 2 X . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

- if at instead, then at x. Not nice at all.

I'm also going to rule out d, on shape grounds - walking into "hane at the head of two stones" after black responds at b doesn't seem too sensible, and black's group looks a lot more comfortable than ours.

So that leaves a and c. A was Mnemonic's nominated choice, and is presumably the joseki move. Although I can't say I much like the look of the sequence he showed - I'd rather continue with something strengthening our own group - this does look like a very sensible move, perhaps even the only one.

c doesn't look too bad, but give black a bit more of the corner for seemingly not much gain.

All in all, I think I'm going to nominate the obvious choice of "a" above (B17), in the hope that it is indeed the only move and it will allow Marcus to just get on with the game. If he does want another suggestion, then "c" looks to me to be about the only viable alternative (perhaps a tenuki is possible, but I doubt it), so I'd suggest that one of Mnemonic or Rafa suggests it (unless of course I'm being stupid, and one of you spots a great move that I've missed )

I apologize for not putting up move, my desire to play go in this past days have been almost 0%, which usually when i play ends up in quite a disasterous game.

Diagram 1

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bcm7 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 2 1 3 . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , X . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

This is the joseki i know of.

Diagram 2

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bcm7 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 5 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 4 1 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 6 O 3 X . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

After 12 black cant ignore 13 i think or else those stones die because of low liberties. After this it ends up like the joseki except with a sacrificed stone.

In this situation i would feel most confortably with diagram 2, although diagram 1 would be the normal choice. Both of them probably need and extention,without it we wouldn´t profit much if black aproach it.
Although both W9 and W12 (in Dia 2) end up in similar situation i feel they are inferior, or is there some kind of move i´m not seeing?
Globally speaking i think white lost a bit even though there is still lots of moves till the end of the game.

robinz wrote:Although I can't say I much like the look of the sequence he showed

No wonder you didn't like my sequence. I don't even know if it's joseki or just a trick play, but it was played in BB#1 and since even some of the dan player's didn't know it it's not surprising you are unfamiliar with it. Anyway, my sequence up to the tenuki is pretty much forced and you have already seen the normal joseki in Rafa's first diagram. Now to how things could continue:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wcm8 After the normal joseki plays at a look interesting
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 1 X 2 . . . . 4 . . b . . . a a . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 5 . a . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

We get the last corner but loose sente. I don't know if this exchange is worth it but there are a lot of big points on the board. I don't know why I included b in the diagram above because it is really slow and low and gote but after that our 4-5 stone looks worthless

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wcm8 White has large weaknesses at (a) but black does not have a base
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 1 X 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . 3 . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I don't know what is going to haven after this sequence, but it is going to get messy really fast. I don't even know if the pincer is at the right spot

I think that robinz move is the only one, but just in case my captain want another one I'll nominate the 44 point in the last corner. (I did not enlarge my nomination because I think it is stupid )

As planned, my suggestion:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bcm9 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . W X 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , X . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]