Life In 19x19

Life in 19x19. Go, Weiqi, Baduk... Thats the life.
https://lifein19x19.com/

Big Brother Malkovich #3

https://lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?t=3133

Page 3 of 12

Re: Big Brother Malkovich #3

Posted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 2:42 pm
by jts
Phelan wrote:My move needs to be approved first though. :p
Ooops, jumped the gun :/

Re: Big Brother Malkovich #3

Posted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 3:06 pm
by Shaddy
Observers.
I am split on whether or not to approve this move. I'm leaning towards changing it, because I refuse to follow jts's posted sequence and would definitely change that anyway (It is necessary to invade white's enclosure, otherwise white becomes unbelievably thick). Hopefully I can force one of their big brothers to make a change so they don't get +5 corrections on us.

Re: Big Brother Malkovich #3

Posted: Wed Feb 09, 2011 11:03 am
by Violence
Approved.

Re: Big Brother Malkovich #3

Posted: Wed Feb 09, 2011 5:14 pm
by Shaddy
I hate to do this early, but no.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Move 7... P: B-0, W-0... C: B-8(10) W-10(7)
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 4 . . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , 6 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . , . . . . . , 3 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Re: Big Brother Malkovich #3

Posted: Wed Feb 09, 2011 6:05 pm
by jts
Awww. :blackeye: I'm not sure whether Shaddy doesn't like this because I made a mistake, or because there's something about global considerations that makes this move preferable, or whether it just fits in with his style more. W has to extend, I think, which leaves W with a supposedly good move at "a" later.

For :b9: (assuming :w8: as below) I'm considering b, c, and d. C is just the wedge; if they get that point, it will probably become necessary to invade at some point, and then we'll spend the rest of the game dealing with the influence W gets. B is meant to work with :b7: ... :b7: is a very loose enclosure, especially with W's right-side group so near, but adding another stone in the corner seems slow and overconcentrated. With "b", my goal would be that if W approaches the corner we already have a stone where one of us wants an extension. D... maybe I need to think about "d" more. Originally I was thinking that if we get to jump back to k4 or k3 we're in very good shape on the bottom, but I can't decide how I would respond to the pincer - jump out or take the corner?
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Move 7... P: B-0, W-0... C: B-8(10) W-10(7)
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . b . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 4 . . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . c , . . . . . , . . . . . , 6 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . , . . . . . , 3 . . |
$$ | . . . . . d . . . . . . . . 5 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Re: Big Brother Malkovich #3

Posted: Wed Feb 09, 2011 6:06 pm
by Phelan
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Move 8... P: B-0, W-0... C: B-8(10) W-10(7)
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 4 . . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , 6 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . , . . . . . , 3 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Basic instinct, at least for me. Stretch any more and get invaded, stretch any less and the base is too cramped.
Even after looking at other moves, nothing makes more sense than this.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc What next?
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 4 . . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 . 7 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . a , 6 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . b . 8 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . , . . . . . , 3 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
I'd play this :b9: if I was black. Then I'd reply with either a or b, not sure yet.
I'll post my thoughts on it tomorrow.

Re: Big Brother Malkovich #3

Posted: Wed Feb 09, 2011 6:46 pm
by Marcus
Approved.
Ho hum ... let's see where this goes. I'm surprised that Shaddy made the change so early ... I would think that the differences between the two approaches would be minimal ... certainly at even my level it's a matter of style more than anything ... Oh well, we'll see what happens.

Re: Big Brother Malkovich #3

Posted: Wed Feb 09, 2011 6:48 pm
by Violence
Uh, approved.
The crap? He changed that move? Even pros wouldn't change such a move, both approaches are playable...

Re: Big Brother Malkovich #3

Posted: Wed Feb 09, 2011 6:49 pm
by dangomango
not sure why shaddy changed the move
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Move 7... P: B-0, W-0... C: B-8(10) W-10(7)
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 4 . . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , 6 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . , . . . . . , 3 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
some ppl consider this wrong direction
usually when we play this type of move, we usually probe first
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Move 7... P: B-0, W-0... C: B-8(10) W-10(7)
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 4 . . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , 6 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . , . . . . . , 3 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
or play the super normal sequences(joseki) - here players can choose complex variation or simple one
Black chooses between a or b
White chooses between c or d after black plays a or b
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Move 7... P: B-0, W-0... C: B-8(10) W-10(7)
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . b . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 4 . . . . . , . . . a . 1 . d . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 0 . 8 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . c . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , 6 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . , . . . . . , 3 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
and of course i prefer this than the changed move
maybe shaddy can enlighten us on his move later

Re: Big Brother Malkovich #3

Posted: Wed Feb 09, 2011 6:57 pm
by dangomango
just looked at game #2, they dont even number moves like us now
how do you number the moves past 10?

Re: Big Brother Malkovich #3

Posted: Wed Feb 09, 2011 7:23 pm
by jts
dangomango wrote:just looked at game #2, they dont even number moves like us now
how do you number the moves past 10?
At the top of the diagram is says something like

$$Bc

This is equivalent to the default,

$$Bcm1

which turns the stone marked "1" in the diagram into :b1: (and "2" into :w2: , etc.)

$$Wcm1

turns "1" into :w1:

$$Bcm11

should turn "1" into Black 11.

Re: Big Brother Malkovich #3

Posted: Wed Feb 09, 2011 7:39 pm
by Shaddy
Observers:
Oops. I forgot the probing approach first- I don't know how to play the orthodox, I only really play chinese openings (and sometimes kobayashi) when I play well-known openings. Anyway, I changed it because going by jts's sequence, we'd have to change a move in two turns, and I'd rather just make a change now so we can get 5 points back faster.

Re: Big Brother Malkovich #3

Posted: Wed Feb 09, 2011 8:16 pm
by jts
Hokay, so. I'm pretty sure that we can tenuki from the right side now. But not completely sure. I want to think through how we'll respond to k14 and q13 before doing anything rash.

As I'm thinking about it..... W doesn't have a ton of space. I ought to have some way to harass W in sente until :b7: is strong. But I could just end up provoking moves like s5 or q10 that solidify white. Maybe I should play q10 myself? I don't think that's the right approach; you attack weak stones at a distance. But maybe in this context r12 is the weak stone, and it needs some help pronto.

I'm leaning towards k17 now. I think the upper right is too unstable to simply play the c10 wedge. But we may need to keep playing on the right side. (Meta-strategy: I'm pretty sure now that the best tenuki points are k17 and c10. On the other hand, I can think of eight places to play on the right. So if I ought to play on the right side, Shaddy will almost certainly change it anyway, but if I ought to tenuki, I have a pretty good chance of getting it right.)

Re: Big Brother Malkovich #3

Posted: Thu Feb 10, 2011 10:53 am
by jts
Looking at the options, directly trying to cut the two stones works okay, but will lead to a messy fight - hard to say that we're ahead on the right side still.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm9 Move 8... P: B-0, W-0... C: B-8(10) W-10(7)
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . 6 O 5 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 1 9 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 3 8 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Peeping at the cut works a little better:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm9 Move 8... P: B-0, W-0... C: B-8(10) W-10(7)
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . 9 2 O 5 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 1 3 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 6 . 7 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm9 Move 8... P: B-0, W-0... C: B-8(10) W-10(7)
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . 2 O 6 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 3 4 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 5 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Those both seem really good for B to me, so I think W is forced to stay low.... this isn't horrible for W, and we still have a cutting point at "a", but I think we're looking pretty strong and white still isn't perfectly safe. The question is, will some sort of exchange like this be better than k17?
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm9 Move 8... P: B-0, W-0... C: B-8(10) W-10(7)
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 4 . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . 3 O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
post-script:
If we cut directly it doesn't matter if we start at r9 or r8, but if we peep q9 and q8 are different... I think it's fairly obvious that, if you just flip the shapes in my 2nd and 3rd diagram, now W's stronger shape is trapped between our cutting stones and our enclosure. Not sure whether that works better when W chooses to stay on the third row, though, which is what matters.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm9 Move 8... P: B-0, W-0... C: B-8(10) W-10(7)
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 6 . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . 5 O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 4 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
That actually looks better to me. I'm having that "I spent a long time thinking about this sequence so I'm gonna play it, gosh darn it" feeling...

Re: Big Brother Malkovich #3

Posted: Thu Feb 10, 2011 7:09 pm
by jts
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Move 9... P: B-0, W-0... C: B-8(9) W-10(7)
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 4 . . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , 6 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . , . . . . . , 3 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
I don't think Shaddy would have changed my move unless he had a specific local result in mind for us. If the goal is "leave situation somewhat unsettled on right side, tenuki to left side," the diagram I had in mind looks better for us. So what could it be? Fourth-line influence isn't the most amazing stuff in the world, but Shaddy wants to do something, and this is something; the q9/q10 peeps work better than the direct cut, which itself is better than any something like q11 or s11. --- Another way of thinking about this is that it's shoulder hit where W has to stay low, when normally you want to respond to the shoulder hit by extending up to the center. So it's a little bit good. And Big Brothers, if you wanted c10 or k17... :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch:
Oh also - :b9: here has the advantage of sort-of defending against Wp5, which is now just a normal elephant jump.
All times are UTC-07:00
Page 3 of 12

Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Limited