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Malkovich 104 - Joaz vs Chew Terr

https://lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?t=3439

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Re: Malkovich 104 - Joaz vs Chew Terr

Posted: Mon Mar 21, 2011 7:24 am
by Chew Terr
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 8 , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . O , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Loons:
No, I wouldn't have approached so near the 3-3 if it was played first. However, if I'm not mistaken, from a 3-3, I think Joaz would have wanted P4 to be one further left. As a result, I don't really think it's ideal from either side, from a tewari standpoint. Maybe a BIT better for white, but I wasn't sure how else to play it. I played there second and ended up with sente, so I feel content enough.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . b . . . a . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . O , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . 8 . . O . c . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
I was originally going to play at this point. This is kind of aiming at several things. 'a' will expand and threaten the bottom middle, 'b' will fairly solidly claim the corner and prepare for a northward extension, and the move does eye an invasion at 'c' for later. The reason I almost played here in specific is, it prevents too much silliness in the corner, works well with the left side, and denies the approach. Next, I would have expected W to wedge the left side or approach one of the top stars from the top. Thinking about it, i eventually decided that the wedge there was just really big, and that I wanted that 'largest area on the board' for myself. So yeah... last second change of plans.

Re: Malkovich 104 - Joaz vs Chew Terr

Posted: Mon Mar 21, 2011 7:39 am
by cyclops
@ observing beginners
The above discussion about how far to extend from the lowerright shimari reminds me of problem #5 in "In the Beginning". I was just trying this problem.

Re: Malkovich 104 - Joaz vs Chew Terr

Posted: Mon Mar 21, 2011 7:42 am
by topazg
@chew:
Why low with :b8: ?

Re: Malkovich 104 - Joaz vs Chew Terr

Posted: Mon Mar 21, 2011 7:48 am
by Chew Terr
Topazg:
I'm comfortable with it, for one. Also, I'm kind of hoping for side territory more than just thickness. It seems like playing high in this sort of situation yields more thickness but less territory.

Re: Malkovich 104 - Joaz vs Chew Terr

Posted: Mon Mar 21, 2011 8:22 am
by Joaz Banbeck
What is this????
Chew Terr wrote: ...violent...die in a fire...bloodbath...
I play a 5-4 on the first move, and he plays the least agressive invasion, one which allows him to slide down the side rather than really contest the corner.
I make a stretched out extension, inviting the invasion, and he doesn't invade.
He makes a big, but slow play on the side.

I feel cheated. WHERE'S MY BLOODBATH??? :)

Re: Malkovich 104 - Joaz vs Chew Terr

Posted: Mon Mar 21, 2011 9:39 am
by Aphelion
I could never bring myself to play the low move here. The sanrensei just feels correct

Re: Malkovich 104 - Joaz vs Chew Terr

Posted: Mon Mar 21, 2011 9:42 am
by fwiffo
I could never bring myself to play sanrensei. The low move just feels more balanced. :lol:

Re: Malkovich 104 - Joaz vs Chew Terr

Posted: Mon Mar 21, 2011 9:55 am
by Aphelion
When I see the low move, I think 'wishy washy coward'

Disclaimer: not that I think anyone is a coward :p

Re: Malkovich 104 - Joaz vs Chew Terr

Posted: Mon Mar 21, 2011 11:44 am
by Joaz Banbeck
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . O , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . W . . . O . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
I expected something like this:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 3 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . O , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . 1 . . O . . a . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
I can't ignore :b1: because it supports an invasion and I must respond with something like :w2:, then :b3: looks like it works well with the corner.

Now that he has played D10, he can't miss G3 a second time. So I'm going to take it myself. ( well, F3 actually )

BTW, there was a possibility of playing F4. If he had played a full sanrensai, I might have regarded my lower side as more important than the corner, and gone for the joseki like this:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . B . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . 7 . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X . 1 . . . , . . . . O , . . . |
$$ | . . 4 3 5 . . . . O . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
...where 'a' is a good invasion.

But with the marked stone low, it and :b2: work too well together.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . B , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . 7 . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X . 1 . . . , . . . . O , . . . |
$$ | . . 4 3 5 . . . . O . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
...and now something like 'a' looks risky.

So I will make the approach low. I'm expecting something like this:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . B . . . . . . , . . . . . , a . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . b . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . O , . . . |
$$ | . . 4 . . 1 . . . O . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

...where I think that I can tenuki to the left, though the ghost of Kageyama is screaming at me to play the honest move at 'b'.

Re: Malkovich 104 - Joaz vs Chew Terr

Posted: Mon Mar 21, 2011 1:08 pm
by Chew Terr
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 0 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . O , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . O . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Okay, that's not too surprising. I'm wondering if the weakness created by K3 was enough that I should have taken the move I considered last time. However, I'm not too bothered by this sequence, Though it'd be obnoxious if W jumps into my corner here, at least I'm high low high on the left side, which works well enough. Additionally, W's flattness on bottom makes me feel better about my flat stones on the right side. =)

Re: Malkovich 104 - Joaz vs Chew Terr

Posted: Mon Mar 21, 2011 3:16 pm
by Joaz Banbeck
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . W . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . O , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . O . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Aggrrr! I can't believe that I was seriously considering the slide at 'a' for my next move. It is completely incompatible with the rest of my stones on the lower side. Everything else down there is looking like a moyo, and the slide is a settling move.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . e . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . c d . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . O , . . . |
$$ | . . b . . O . . . O . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Besides that, once I am strong enough in the lower middle, I want to take 'b' myself. If he tries to prevent it all by taking 'a', I'll cash in my aji on the right with the 'c'/'d' exchange, and then play 'e'.

Re: Malkovich 104 - Joaz vs Chew Terr

Posted: Mon Mar 21, 2011 3:19 pm
by topazg
With K3 low, Joaz has no moyo.

Posted: Mon Mar 21, 2011 4:57 pm
by EdLee
topazg, Aphelion, fwiffo:
About Chew's 3rd line :bt:, just for reference:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . b . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . @ . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . Y , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . a . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
SmartGo returns 4 pro games out of 50,744 with the above opening (orientation independant, of course)
in 1993, 1995, 2000, and 2009; and two more pro games if :ws: was at the 3-4 at (b).
As always, we don't know what the pros were thinking,
maybe they were only experimenting with this low :black: :bt: :black: formation, and we don't know their conclusions, either.
In any case, it's still quite early in Chew's game, and for this level of play--I can only speak for myself, at my level--
3rd or 4th line at this stage does not matter so much and does not decide the game by any means. :)
(Perhaps this is also applicable to W's low :w7: at (a).)
In fact, at :b8: in Chew's game, it was not a moyo game, it was a territory game,
so perhaps the low :b8: was better than high.

Re: Malkovich 104 - Joaz vs Chew Terr

Posted: Mon Mar 21, 2011 5:07 pm
by Kirby
I definitely prefer high on the left.

Re: Malkovich 104 - Joaz vs Chew Terr

Posted: Mon Mar 21, 2011 5:17 pm
by topazg
@Ed:
Yeah, I know it's played, and I'd certainly not call it bad - I was just curious as to what the justification for the decision was :)
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