Life In 19x19

Walk the path, don't talk the path ... Yes, I believe talking the path is probably the most important reason why people don't walk it. Extrovert people (like me) seek recognition by others and are good at communication. So, if they get the pat on the back for good talking, there's no need for walking.

I'm less positive than magicwand. I believe any reasonably smart and studioues person can reach 5d. IMO 6d and 7d are those who were either just a little bit short on smartness or zeal enough to make it, or started too late, or never were in a condition to make it. 7d is really strong. No doubt a professional can destroy a 7d but rather by the fact that the pro is seasoned in the high circles.

For me or Tami or the likes of us, it must be possible to become 5d in a matter of years, but then by persevered playing, analyzing and studying. Forums are a waste of time. Enjoyable at times, tangent for motivation perhaps, but mostly distracting and giving a false believe of business.

Knotwilg wrote:Walk the path, don't talk the path ... Yes, I believe talking the path is probably the most important reason why people don't walk it. Extrovert people (like me) seek recognition by others and are good at communication. So, if they get the pat on the back for good talking, there's no need for walking.... Forums are a waste of time. Enjoyable at times, tangent for motivation perhaps, but mostly distracting and giving a false believe of business.

While there is probably some truth in this, I don't think that walking and talking are mutually exclusive (for most people ), and while you can waste time on forums, forums themselves are not a waste of time. In particular, this thread, in which Tami documents and shares her insights about the game is hardly a waste of time. On the contrary, it seems to me likely that putting her thoughts into words will help her achieve her goals of getting stronger and learning to teach.

Of course it's another matter entirely if one spends more time on the forum than studying go (looks in mirror ).

Yes, I think Dieter threw the baby out with the bathwater, although I can understand his point of view. Certainly, it takes self-discipline to avoid wasting time on forums.

But, with some discipline, they can surely be extremely useful. In my recent experience:

* I learned a lot from the recent thread I started a 3-3 pseudo-joseki, more than I had bargained for, in fact.
* It's reassuring to know that I am not alone, and that others get frustrated sometimes, too.
* I found out about some good books from here.
* I am interested in how other players are doing
* Sad to report, possibly, but this forum gives me some kind of social hub - it's not easy for a 40ish Englishwoman to relate to the usual clientele at a Japanese go salon, and it's probably not easy for them either.

Anyway, I'm off to play go now

Mind you that I do not consider forums a waste of time: Tami has listed some great reasons to be on a forum. Forums are great for interaction. For improvement, I believe they are very remotely helpful at best and downright counterproductive most of the time.

Forums on improvement are in my opinion mostly self deluding.

I'll look at myself: what have all those hours on Sensei's Library done to my go? I sometimes come across interesting pages, thinking "I should learn this", only to find out I've written them myself. Clearly all the editing did little to my incorporating the concept.

I remember distinctly when I improved most: in 1999-2001, pre-SL, when I played a series of games against a friend-rival, where handicaps would increase with victories. I'd analyze all those games thoroughly and vowed to DO something with the knowledge next game. I didn't communicate about it back then.

Clearly I care more about communication than improvement these days.

Sometimes I feel that I learn very slowly, while just about everybody else learns quickly. Maybe it's just an illusion, but sometimes I get so fed up with it.

The thing that I particularly dislike it knowing that my opponent is overplaying or being unreasonable or unprincipled in some way, and yet not quite being able to punish it. Do I try too hard? Is it ME who is being unreasonable and unprincipled?

When will things finally make sense?

You can just imagine how bad is it to see an overplay on my level, and have no idea how to answer:P Lately my learning pace also slowed down, but this is because I've been playing more and reading books less. I was doing best when I played 2-3 games a day (20-30 minutes per person + 3-5x 30s), and read for 1-2 hours. I don't know how much more effective is it to multiple those numbers, because if we have other responsibilities, we wont have enough energy to absorb more anyway.

Anyway it isn't that important to learn fast, but to learn and remember what You have learned

I think that overplaying isn't important as long as your opponent can't punish it (for example, look at handicap games! Even 9p players use overplay to win!)

I had the same problem where I saw my opponent makes a move that should be illegal. When it happens, just look to see if you can punish it. If you can, do it. If you can't, don't bother with it and look again during the review (you can even post the game on the forums if you want). If you spend too much time thinking about this extension or this move that you think is overplay, you'll probably lose focus about what's going on and start playing to be able to hit that precise weak spot, forgetting the rest of the board. When you finally wake up and see you attacked well the overplay but that, meanwhile, your opponent took half the board, it's hard...

I tend to see these problems as a problem from a tsumego/tesuji book that is too hard for me. If I can find the answer, I find it. If I can't, I don't bother myself with it

It's hard to be helpful, on such a hard topic, but I can guarantee you that they ARE making overplays. The fact that you notice them now can only be a sign that you're getting stronger (or, at least, that you see stuff better than before).

Keep up the good work! Remember we plateau only so we can start climbing higher again!

Leyleth wrote: If you spend too much time thinking about this extension or this move that you think is overplay, you'll probably lose focus about what's going on and start playing to be able to hit that precise weak spot, forgetting the rest of the board. When you finally wake up and see you attacked well the overplay but that, meanwhile, your opponent took half the board, it's hard...

There's a lot of truth to that, Leyleth. Sometimes, it's possible to get so intent on "punishing" that one ends up playing worse than the moves one is trying to punish.

I guess you try (as I do) to play solid and steady. But I often feel to succeed with this way of playing you have to play very sharp and not to err on the side of slackness (as I all too often do).

See also: Being Obsessed With Punishing

Most of my time is spent on music, specifically learning to play the guitar. I have found that the main techniques of playing the guitar are not so numerous, and do not take long to learn at a basic level. For example, "alternate picking" is a very simple concept in itself. The difficulty, though, is learning how to apply the techniques consistently and appropriately. Alternative picking is almost always the best way to play a lead line, but not always; making alternative picking sound smooth and rhythmic, while not dully metronomic is no small matter. In other words, gaining an applied ability takes many, many hours of practice.

Similarly, I am starting to think it is likely to be similar with go. The hard part is not so much learning the concepts and principles of good play, but learning how to use them. Knowledge of pro games, joseki and tsumego is crucially useful in exactly the same way as learning the licks of Hendrix or Hammett or Clapton. For instance, it's easy to understand the idea of bending a string up one whole tone to make a vocalic, expressive sound; and somehow the whole principle becomes easier to use once you being learning a Hendrix solo, in which this idea is extensively applied. Likewise, going over the problems in Takao`s Introductory Series (I wrote a review in the Go Books Reviews section here) has helped me to get a much better grip on the basics of opening theory.

Also, I went right ahead yesterday and bought Takao's 21st Century Joseki Dictionary - both volumes. This is the Japanese version. At 4800 Yen, it was pretty expensive, but I think it will serve me well for a long time to come, because it is extremely comprehensive, and very well arranged. I have tended to find joseki textbooks meandering and confusing, but this one seems very easy to use as a reference. My intention is to keep it by my computer, so that I can check out mistakes or alternative possibilities after I play a game. As John Fairbairn remarked in his review of the English version, Takao is pretty good at explaining different lines as opposed to saying "Black plays here, White goes there", and so I feel this will turn out to be a good investment.

The main difference that I am experiencing between my guitar and go learning, is that it is easier for my guitar skills to decrease when not enough time is spent on exercising. Playing the guitar is both physical and mental "thing", while playing go is "only" mental. I think that brain memory lasts longer than muscular memory.

Just got an idea about Go learning - while practicing guitar playing it is sometimes good to push yourself beyond Your comfort zone, for example try to play longer or faster than You can. This way muscles get the information that they have to improve, and your brain gets more familiar with higher difficulty.

I'm not sure how one can apply this to Go, but most probably these concepts can yield some good results:)

[quote="Gorim"]Just got an idea about Go learning - while practicing guitar playing it is sometimes good to push yourself beyond Your comfort zone, for example try to play longer or faster than You can. This way muscles get the information that they have to improve, and your brain gets more familiar with higher difficulty. I'm not sure how one can apply this to Go, but most probably these concepts can yield some good results:)

I definitely agree with that.

On guitar you can always play faster or strive to be more accurate or more expressive; in go, you can try to read one ply deeper, or learn a new joseki or fuseki, or try a harder tsumego, or try to find where you could have played better in your latest games. You can always take aim at a player a bit better than yourself. Stagnation is never encountering anything new; "foo factor" is when you have a lot of new ideas, but no practical experience.

Gorim wrote:Just got an idea about Go learning - while practicing guitar playing it is sometimes good to push yourself beyond Your comfort zone, for example try to play longer or faster than You can. This way muscles get the information that they have to improve, and your brain gets more familiar with higher difficulty. I'm not sure how one can apply this to Go, but most probably these concepts can yield some good results:)

I definitely agree with that.

On guitar you can always play faster or strive to be more accurate or more expressive; in go, you can try to read one ply deeper, or learn a new joseki or fuseki, or try a harder tsumego, or try to find where you could have played better in your latest games. You can always take aim at a player a bit better than yourself. Stagnation is never encountering anything new; "foo factor" is when you have a lot of new ideas, but no practical experience.

Gorim wrote:The main difference that I am experiencing between my guitar and go learning, is that it is easier for my guitar skills to decrease when not enough time is spent on exercising. Playing the guitar is both physical and mental "thing", while playing go is "only" mental. I think that brain memory lasts longer than muscular memory.

Funnily enough, I am the opposite. While I don't forget things that I have learned, I do become rusty if I don't use them for a long time, and rust affects my go more than it does muscular activities. For instance, when I started playing go again last year, after a two year hiatus, it took me a month to get back to where I was before; but when I had to drive a car last summer, after over a year of not driving, I found after ten minutes it was as though I had been driving all my life.

Gorim wrote:Just got an idea about Go learning - while practicing guitar playing it is sometimes good to push yourself beyond Your comfort zone, for example try to play longer or faster than You can. This way muscles get the information that they have to improve, and your brain gets more familiar with higher difficulty.

I'm not sure how one can apply this to Go, but most probably these concepts can yield some good results:)

When I was first starting out I'd grab a pack of problems that were too hard for me and basically memorize the solutions for them (just by doing them over and over. You naturally memorize it if the set isn't too large). I'm not sure if it's a useful exercise or not, but that's probably the equivalent.

It's not go-related, but I would just like to mention that I found out this morning that I passed JLPT N2! Perhaps that should give my reviews of Japanese go books a little bit more credibility; it also shows that perseverance pays off, as only a year or so ago I did not think I could ever pass it.