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2nd Kuchinashi Tournament (4k-6k)

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Page 3 of 12

Re: 2nd Kuchinashi Tournament (4k-6k)

Posted: Mon May 24, 2010 9:31 pm
by Jedo
Me and Nikolas will be breaking our 1-1 tie tuesday night at 9:15 est.

Re: 2nd Kuchinashi Tournament (4k-6k)

Posted: Tue May 25, 2010 11:52 am
by Aphelion
Padic and I played our first Round 2 game today. I took Black and Padic held the White stones. Result is B+R.

I lead our series 1-0, and game 2 will be tomorrow 19:00 CEST

Re: 2nd Kuchinashi Tournament (4k-6k)

Posted: Tue May 25, 2010 7:42 pm
by Shaddy
review of nik-jedo 3, with interspersed comments

Re: 2nd Kuchinashi Tournament (4k-6k)

Posted: Tue May 25, 2010 7:55 pm
by Nikolas73
Ah, Shaddy beat me here. Thanks again for reviewing! Needless to say I won the game (it was very close, very exciting), and lead the series 2-1. Jedo, I will contact you to discuss when the next game is.

Re: 2nd Kuchinashi Tournament (4k-6k)

Posted: Tue May 25, 2010 8:28 pm
by Magicwand
Nikolas73 : FYI
P14 will work at kyu level but if you play against stronger player you will not be successful.
you will have to feel why it is a bad move yourself so i am just telling you the answer.
when you feel that P14 is a bad move you may be 1D level certified.

Re: 2nd Kuchinashi Tournament (4k-6k)

Posted: Tue May 25, 2010 8:53 pm
by Nikolas73
Magicwand wrote:Nikolas73 : FYI
P14 will work at kyu level but if you play against stronger player you will not be successful.
you will have to feel why it is a bad move yourself so i am just telling you the answer.
when you feel that P14 is a bad move you may be 1D level certified.
Hmm, you think so? I considered P16, R12 and O17, but they seemed a tad too territorial for a sanrensei opening. Well, I'll think about it, thanks for the tip..

Re: 2nd Kuchinashi Tournament (4k-6k)

Posted: Wed May 26, 2010 2:20 am
by SoDesuNe
What I heard is, with such a Keima you're leaving only weaknesses behind.
Of course you'll scare a lot of weaker players, because we tend to overestimate Moyos but in the end this Keima can easily be cut when White approaches the other side. If you defend, White has the chance to develop one side and thus might be able to chase your corner stones, because the Keima didn't give you a base.
A complicated position, indeed, but with proper fighting skills and reading it is bad for Black (in this example).

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ------------------
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . a . . . . . |
$$ X . . . b . X . . . |
$$ . . . . . c . . . . |
$$ . . . . . 1 . O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]
The proper Moyo-move (Takemiya) for Black in this example would be 'c'. A Kosumi cannot be cut.

Nikolas73 wrote:[...] but they seemed a tad too territorial for a sanrensei opening
As far as I understand the San-Ren-Sei, there's nothing wrong with taking territory, when your opponent approaches/attacks/invades you. This is in my opinion the actual idea behind this opening.

Re: 2nd Kuchinashi Tournament (4k-6k)

Posted: Wed May 26, 2010 3:01 am
by Solomon
I disagree with both Magicwand and SoDesuNe here. The keima has been played professionally plenty of times, and unless Takemiya is a hypocrite, then what SoDesuNe makes no sense because he is the one who uses it the most:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Takemiya M. as B vs. Ishida Y.
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Takemiya M. as B vs. Rin K.
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Takemiya M. as B vs. Yata N.
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . 2 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . 1 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
And other professionals have played it of course, to list a few in the past...:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Onada C. vs. Kitani M. as B
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Kubomatsu K. vs. Go S. as B
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
...and the present:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Dong Y. vs. Li K.
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Liu J. vs. Luo X. as B
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
So if it's fine by the likes to Takemiya Masaki, Kitani Minoru, Go Seigen, Luo Xihe, and more...then it's fine by me.

And in response to Magicwand's post to Nikolas...when you feel the move is bad, and then fine again, you may be 5d certified ;).

Re: 2nd Kuchinashi Tournament (4k-6k)

Posted: Wed May 26, 2010 3:05 am
by topazg
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Takemiya M. as B vs. Rin K.
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
G14?? No wonder everyone loves this guy :)

Re: 2nd Kuchinashi Tournament (4k-6k)

Posted: Wed May 26, 2010 3:08 am
by Solomon
topazg wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Takemiya M. as B vs. Rin K.
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
G14?? No wonder everyone loves this guy :)
Yes, it's a move I need to try more often to open my mind.

Oddly I think of a Vulture from SC whenever I see it (you can kind of see it from the shape). And like the Vulture it's light, nimble, and if you try to exploit it too quickly you might get a Spider Mine to the face :).

Re: 2nd Kuchinashi Tournament (4k-6k)

Posted: Wed May 26, 2010 3:18 am
by SoDesuNe
Ha ha ha, okay I'll try to refrain from naming professionals, if I am not familiar with all their ("special") moves ^^

Thanks anyway, I learnt something!

Re: 2nd Kuchinashi Tournament (4k-6k)

Posted: Wed May 26, 2010 4:45 am
by prokofiev
Araban wrote:
topazg wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Takemiya M. as B vs. Rin K.
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
G14?? No wonder everyone loves this guy :)
Yes, it's a move I need to try more often to open my mind.

Oddly I think of a Vulture from SC whenever I see it (you can kind of see it from the shape). And like the Vulture it's light, nimble, and if you try to exploit it too quickly you might get a Spider Mine to the face :).
Something's wrong here. Black has made 7 moves, but White only 5.

Re: 2nd Kuchinashi Tournament (4k-6k)

Posted: Wed May 26, 2010 5:11 am
by Solomon
prokofiev wrote:Something's wrong here. Black has made 7 moves, but White only 5.
Yep, forgot a move. Edited.

Re: 2nd Kuchinashi Tournament (4k-6k)

Posted: Wed May 26, 2010 5:27 am
by Magicwand
Araban wrote:I disagree with both Magicwand and SoDesuNe here. The keima has been played professionally plenty of times, and unless Takemiya is a hypocrite, then what SoDesuNe makes no sense because he is the one who uses it the most:
yes you are correct that takameya (masaki?) has played that move many times.
i remember when i used to review professional's game. 20 years ago.

BUT! takameya was a radical who was willing to try new ideas.
if it is a good move why aren't professional today not playing such move?
what i felt about that move when i experiminted on my game was.... akward.
it has a weak spots and very hard to fix.
on some games it might be appropriate but i felt that on a normal opening it is sub joseki. and i bet many professionals feel that way about that move.

just because few professionals experimented a move doesnt mean it is a good move.

Re: 2nd Kuchinashi Tournament (4k-6k)

Posted: Wed May 26, 2010 5:44 am
by Solomon
Magicwand wrote:
Araban wrote:I disagree with both Magicwand and SoDesuNe here. The keima has been played professionally plenty of times, and unless Takemiya is a hypocrite, then what SoDesuNe makes no sense because he is the one who uses it the most:
yes you are correct that takameya (masaki?) has played that move many times.
i remember when i used to review professional's game. 20 years ago.

BUT! takameya was a radical who was willing to try new ideas.
if it is a good move why aren't professional today not playing such move?
what i felt about that move when i experiminted on my game was.... akward.
it has a weak spots and very hard to fix.
on some games it might be appropriate but i felt that on a normal opening it is sub joseki. and i bet many professionals feel that way about that move.

just because few professionals experimented a move doesnt mean it is a good move.
The answer is quite simple actually: the problem is that today most professionals aren't even willing to try the san-ren-sei, so the opportunity to even set up the opening for the keima is severely restricted. Unless you're willing to extend your argument to say that the san-ren-sei is bad (which is a bold statement), then the argument doesn't hold much ground when the conditional requirement for the keima is a specific opening that is also rare today. Most professionals play territorially and strive to win rather than try bold ideas, but I think the handful of games where we do see professionals use it is more than enough for amateurs at our level to consider. And as I wrote in my earlier thread, it isn't just Takemiya who played that move and I showed games from other pros who have also used it.
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