Life In 19x19

Like you said in your previous post, we can't make an informed judgement about those 7 years unless Doug provides detailed information. Maybe Doug is the irrational one for 7 years, but we can't know.

hammertime wrote:More admins do not change how users behave. If someone insists on being childish as clearly demonstrated on the forums already then the new admins will also continue to boot.

Note the email says "Your negative behaviour on KGS has taken place for several years."

Several years, if someone doesnt learn what will get them banned after that much time then really no amount of time is going to change it.

Yes, but that's not just the case for xDragon. There are quite a few people (jts has said so, I'm one of them too) who simply don't chat in the EGR because of the difficulty with the admins that has happened in the past. I have little doubt here that xDragon had what was coming, but that doesn't in itself mean there isn't an issue on the other side as well.

Part of the difficulty is there's no place really set up for chatting about non-Go related material that's easy to find. It would be useful if the ECR loaded by default when someone installs KGS as well, as it makes it much easier to say "this room is for Go related chat, that room is for general chat". As it is, a lot of people aren't even aware the ECR exists.

Right, we can't make judgement on the situation as a whole but it seems even here he is determined to show his true colours with "you could have just said nothing at all instead of being an ass" and "* - the censored comment was made after this kick and was inappropriate so i wont fight that, but there you go."

No system is perfect either, especially one that is run by people who don't get paid and have to deal with people complaining all day. I'm sure there are admins who do take breaks from KGS just to reset themselves from all the children with a fight the power attitude. If everyone just tried to not provoke others, which applies to both sides, then things would be a lot smoother. The majority of KGS users have no issues with admins so as a whole I would say they aren't doing too bad. No one is going to get it right 100% of the time, when an admin gets it wrong and everyone is quick to attack the admin and when a user gets it wrong they try to act like a matyr and pass the buck to the admins. If a user has a legitimate complaint then they should take it up with an admin directly, screaming in the EGR for hours on end will not solve their issue.

topazg wrote:Part of the difficulty is there's no place really set up for chatting about non-Go related material that's easy to find. It would be useful if the ECR loaded by default when someone installs KGS as well, as it makes it much easier to say "this room is for Go related chat, that room is for general chat". As it is, a lot of people aren't even aware the ECR exists.

This is the simplest, smartest comment in this whole thread. It's a much less confrontational version of what I proposed. Maybe also add the neutral "if you have a problem with another user or KGS policies, please privately contract an administrator."

The current setup just features a link to the uninviting "main rooms policy". Worse, in the web client, I can't click that link, nor can I copy it with ctrl-c (Chrome, Windows XP). But users don't read long things, and they often don't follow relevant links.

Or just let people chat in the EGR. There is no Go discussion there anyway..

(an idea isn't bad just because it has been proposed over and over. It's probably the opposite.)

uPWarrior wrote:Or just let people chat in the EGR. There is no Go discussion there anyway..

Honestly, I agree, but I also know that wms et al. will never endorse this. So let's start thinking about other options.

hyperpape wrote:

uPWarrior wrote:Or just let people chat in the EGR. There is no Go discussion there anyway..

Honestly, I agree, but I also know that wms et al. will never endorse this. So let's start thinking about other options.

current policy for EGR conversations is 'sensible discussions need not be moved'

I had been trying to avoid commenting in this thread for obvious reasons, so I'll just make one post and be on my way....

I think the whole ordeal is perfectly encapsulated by two posts already made --

Joaz Banbeck wrote:You can always privately ask an admin why things are done in a certain manner. A private question is usually interpreted as a question. A public question is often interpreted as a challenge.

oren wrote: I'm not sure we're trying to learn any lessons. This is a topic to vent about bad times on online go servers in.

Which is all well and good, venting is healthy. Nevertheless I figured I would go ahead and mention: if anyone has a question or issue with KGS / KGS policy they can go ahead and shoot me a PM either here or if you see me online on KGS (I'm sure most other admins would say the same, but I don't want to speak for them). If you prefer a "public" discussion - I'd also be happy to answer your question in the ECR, or the L19 room on KGS, but as has been stated previously, these types of discussions are not the best for the EGR, after all for many people it would seem these issues border on politics. If I may make one small request though, it would be that if you do talk to me, you enter the conversation with an open mind and with hope of constructive exchange of information. All too often "issues" are brought up not to try and learn, but instead to try and set up an adversarial exchange one can "win" (unfortunately this is often especially true for people who insist on dragging private matters out into public forums). With that mentality, it is virtually impossible to end up with a positive outcome no matter what happens, and all to often just ends up with both sides feeling angry or bitter.

One other comment I completely agree with, but for the exact opposite reason the poster intended, is this one:

Redundant wrote: For me the most damning thing about BigDoug's adminship is that KGS became a noticeably better place once I censored him.

This is an incredibly telling comment, that I feel goes a long way to exemplify the issue at hand. A few years ago, yes, moderation in the EGR may have been a bit more severe and many people were upset about this. Doug ends up being on the receiving end of much of this ire as he is perhaps a little more visible than most admins, and is willing to take on the role of "bad guy" if someone has to do it (it also probably doesn't help that his name is so easy to remember). Now, as Redundant mentions, he has censored Doug (I assume recently, within the last four years) and he has seen a marked improvement! Of course the curious thing about that, is that censoring Doug will put a red X on his name and nothing else*. While the red X may be a source of comfort, I would posit that what has actually happened is things have gotten better, but there is mindset many are stuck in that they haven't done a legitimate reassessment of the entire situation. Instead they still focus on the occasional event that confirms their bias and ignore (or at least not actively notice) any evidence that may appear to the contrary. I think at times it may be useful to try and remove our emotions from the discussion, take a step back and review things objectively.

Sidenote, just because the fruit is just hanging too low --
We now return you to your regularly scheduled thread


_{* All right, I'll admit I can't say for certain censoring Doug would do nothing else -- I believe it may prevent him being paired with Redundant in automatch. The point still holds however, all Doug's chat is still be visible - this is quite easy to test on your own to confirm.}

topazg wrote:Part of the difficulty is there's no place really set up for chatting about non-Go related material that's easy to find. It would be useful if the ECR loaded by default when someone installs KGS as well, as it makes it much easier to say "this room is for Go related chat, that room is for general chat". As it is, a lot of people aren't even aware the ECR exists.

i cant tell you how many times and how many admins ive suggested this to, and not a single one even acknowledged the point. not one. so something tells me they dont want that so they can have their fun moderating more chats

xDragon: You're having a destabilizing effect on the side of the argument you purport to support. To the degree where now others are having to make the point.

"Yes, xDragon deserved it, but that doesn't mean there's not an EGR problem or moderator issues"

I think you might want to withdraw from this argument and let others fight this battle...

xDragon wrote:

topazg wrote:Part of the difficulty is there's no place really set up for chatting about non-Go related material that's easy to find. It would be useful if the ECR loaded by default when someone installs KGS as well, as it makes it much easier to say "this room is for Go related chat, that room is for general chat". As it is, a lot of people aren't even aware the ECR exists.

i cant tell you how many times and how many admins ive suggested this to, and not a single one even acknowledged the point. not one. so something tells me they dont want that so they can have their fun moderating more chats

because the admins have no control over this.

xed_over wrote:

xDragon wrote:

topazg wrote:Part of the difficulty is there's no place really set up for chatting about non-Go related material that's easy to find. It would be useful if the ECR loaded by default when someone installs KGS as well, as it makes it much easier to say "this room is for Go related chat, that room is for general chat". As it is, a lot of people aren't even aware the ECR exists.

i cant tell you how many times and how many admins ive suggested this to, and not a single one even acknowledged the point. not one. so something tells me they dont want that so they can have their fun moderating more chats

because the admins have no control over this.

do they not have easier access to wms than most users?

Its a GO SERVER. Go there to play go. Go to a forum or a bathroom stall to write inane crap. I just kept reading this thread thinking how on earth I would ever manage to get banned from a go server, no matter how "insane" a moderator is. Political forum? Maybe. The mall? Sure. But if you get banned from a go server, its pretty clear you weren't just playing go.

Sorry to sound condescending, but those are my two cents.

Brodie: the thing is, go is actually quite a social game. And the EGR sometimes has some great conversations.

Yes, there are folks like xDragon who go out of their way to antagonize the moderators, but people have gotten banned for the strangest stuff.

I've been banned once, for saying something that I didn't even realize was a euphemism. (And even after looking it up, I think it was just an artifact of someone getting creative on Urban Dictionary)

It was sudden, I had been game-relevant in my kibitz, up until that one line. (It wasn't one of those lines tossed in after the admin had said to stop either)

But I think the admin had had his/her nerves stretched over the course of the day, cuz "Whoosh" and I can no longer log on.


That being said, those problems were resolved expeditiously, and I haven't been banned since. (That was maybe 2 years ago?)

I think the bulk of banning comes from "misuse of the egr". And I agree with others that the main room should allow general chat. Determining what is, or is not, go-related is very subjective, and moderators, like referee's are bound to make bad calls.

I realize that my comment was a little too strong. Obviously I realize that go is social, and more than that, it is a way of life for a lot of folks. No one becomes a dan by being an occasional player. And I'm sure that, as in every walk of life, there are admins that wield their new-found power with a maddeningly excessive swagger.

But its a go server. Its not the town square. You aren't entitled to free speech. I think of it like walking into someone's home. WMS and the admins are trying to create a go server that people can use to play go (and clearly, they've created the one we like the most). The moment you walk in the door you agree to respect their place, and abide by the rules. Unfortunately the internet breeds outlandish, rude, and immature behavior that perhaps puts some admins on a hair trigger, but I'm guessing that in situations like yours, shapenaji, it was a misunderstanding that was cleared up. I simply don't understand the entitlement and indignant outrage of people that act like asses in someone else's joint.