Page 3 of 10
Re: How to Become a Dan
Posted: Sun Dec 23, 2012 12:22 pm
by Uberdude
lovelove wrote:Lecture 18
Invasion after joseki (Part 2)
In the 2nd variation, white r9 will often be better than s8 as it also connects but stops black playing r9 himself to build some outside influence.
Re: How to Become a Dan
Posted: Sun Dec 23, 2012 12:51 pm
by lovelove
Uberdude wrote:lovelove wrote:Lecture 18
Invasion after joseki (Part 2)
In the 2nd variation, white r9 will often be better than s8 as it also connects but stops black playing r9 himself to build some outside influence.
R9 instead of S8 is a outdated Japanese joseki, which is now considered inferior, from modern research.
Re: How to Become a Dan
Posted: Mon Dec 24, 2012 4:21 am
by Uberdude
lovelove wrote:Uberdude wrote:lovelove wrote:Lecture 18
Invasion after joseki (Part 2)
In the 2nd variation, white r9 will often be better than s8 as it also connects but stops black playing r9 himself to build some outside influence.
R9 instead of S8 is a outdated Japanese joseki, which is now considered inferior, from modern research.
Can you please explain the change in understanding?
Re: How to Become a Dan
Posted: Mon Dec 24, 2012 5:58 am
by lovelove
Uberdude wrote:lovelove wrote:Uberdude wrote:
In the 2nd variation, white r9 will often be better than s8 as it also connects but stops black playing r9 himself to build some outside influence.
R9 instead of S8 is a outdated Japanese joseki, which is now considered inferior, from modern research.
Can you please explain the change in understanding?
Check my PM.
Re: How to Become a Dan
Posted: Mon Dec 24, 2012 6:10 am
by BigBadBuu
No, tell everybody.
Re: How to Become a Dan
Posted: Mon Dec 24, 2012 8:15 am
by Uberdude
From the PM, it seems lovelove misunderstood me. He thought I was suggesting the following play at r9 for black rather than the nobi to the second line. my understanding of this move is that it can be playable, but it makes white get stronger on the outside so the second line move should be considered the default best move.
$$c White stronger as q10 sente
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$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O 7 . |
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- Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c White stronger as q10 sente
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$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O 7 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 5 . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X 3 . . |
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$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
What I was suggesting was r9 for white in place of s8 when black connects in the corner on the outside, allowing the s6 descent in sente:
$$c My suggestion
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O 8 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . 3 2 X 9 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X 4 5 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 7 . |
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- Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c My suggestion
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O 8 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . 3 2 X 9 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X 4 5 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 7 . |
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$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
q8 and s8 are now miai, so white is connected. The advantage of this move over s8 is that black can less easily do something useful with his r8 stone, as shown in the next diagram where he builds influence (and white increases his territory in return). A downside of r9 is that if black plays s8 even though you capture the 2 stones it is only one eye so if black gets stronger around this aji could be annoying, but s8 similarly is not an unconditional 2 eyes though the eyespace does seem slightly better to me.
$$c Black can build influence later if white s8
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 X 6 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 4 8 . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . 3 O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 2 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . |
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$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . X O X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . |
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- Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Black can build influence later if white s8
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 X 6 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 4 8 . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . 3 O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 2 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . X O X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . |
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$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
P.S. Also s4 at t4 is better yose.
Re: How to Become a Dan
Posted: Wed Dec 26, 2012 11:09 pm
by lovelove
Lecture 19
Something short
$$c A shining move!
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$$ | . . . O . . O . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . X . . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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- Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c A shining move!
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$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . O . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . X . . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Re: How to Become a Dan
Posted: Wed Dec 26, 2012 11:32 pm
by logan
Uberdude wrote:$$c My suggestion
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$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 0 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O 8 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . 3 2 X 9 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X 4 5 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 7 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------
- Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c My suggestion
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$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
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$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 0 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O 8 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . 3 2 X 9 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X 4 5 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 7 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Yes,
is what I learned from a Korean haengma book.
In anycase, the push at
is what's most important. It's a move to remember.
lovelove wrote:Lecture 19
Something short
$$c A shining move!
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$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . O . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . X . . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ ---------------------------------------
- Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c A shining move!
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$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . O . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . X . . O . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
It's even more fun when you use it to kill a group
Teaching game I remember:
$$Wc
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$$ | . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O O X . X . . . X . . X . . |
$$ | . . O , O X O O X , . . . . . X . O . |
$$ | . . O X . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X X . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . , . . . |
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$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
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$$ ---------------------------------------
- Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
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$$ | . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O O X . X . . . X . . X . . |
$$ | . . O , O X O O X , . . . . . X . O . |
$$ | . . O X . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X X . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . , . . . |
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$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
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$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Re: How to Become a Dan
Posted: Wed Dec 26, 2012 11:37 pm
by lovelove
Lecture 20
Trick move (Part 1)
*Always look at the former branch first.*
Re: How to Become a Dan
Posted: Sun Dec 30, 2012 8:26 am
by lovelove
Lecture 21
Trick move (Part 2)
*Always look at the former branch first.*
Re: How to Become a Dan
Posted: Sun Dec 30, 2012 8:50 am
by lovelove
Lecture 22
Trick move (Part 3)
*Always look at the former branch first.*
Re: How to Become a Dan
Posted: Sun Dec 30, 2012 9:10 am
by lovelove
Lecture 23
Trick move (Part 4)
*Always look at the former branch first.*
Re: How to Become a Dan
Posted: Sun Dec 30, 2012 9:28 am
by jts
Lovelove, thank you again for posting this series. A question about 22: is it "no ko" in the sense that no threat is big enough, or in the sense that w can't win the ko by connecting?
Re: How to Become a Dan
Posted: Sun Dec 30, 2012 9:30 am
by lovelove
Lecture 24
Trick move (Part 5)
*Always look at the former branch first.*
Re: How to Become a Dan
Posted: Sun Dec 30, 2012 9:35 am
by lovelove
jts wrote:Lovelove, thank you again for posting this series. A question about 22: is it "no ko" in the sense that no threat is big enough, or in the sense that w can't win the ko by connecting?
You are right in both. In addition, that ko is a direct ko for black, but approach ko for white; white needs to ignore black's ko threat twice to win the ko.