Life In 19x19

rubin427 wrote:

vash3g wrote:What would everyone like to see the AGA do over the next three to five years?

I gave my own comments earlier - but my wife, who is neither a member of the AGA or a Go player also has one suggestion.

My wife would like to see a future Go Congress take place on a Cruise Ship so that she has reason to take the whole family.

There would be a *lot* of challenges associated with an idea like this - probably it's completely impractical. But... if it worked out somehow, the idea is really attractive. I'll at least mention the idea.

(I've told her to keep her fingers crossed for easy beach access for the 2011 so.cal congress as an alternative.)

A few years ago iirc, there was a gung-ho Go organizer in Florida who had an idea to have a "mini-Congress" over a long winter weekend. I sort of dropped out before it got going, so I don't know if it fizzled or what, but that just as easily could have been done on a cruise ship, right? (I seem to recall that a resort in Jamaica is owned by a Go player who offered discounts to other players... I remember fantasizing about having a winter Go gathering there...)

I wonder -- how does the per-person cost of chartering a cruise ship compare with the per-person cost of chartering a college campus?

John Fairbairn wrote:[...] I can't speak for the US congresses, but the European congresses are actually already pretty family oriented and often take place in sites where non-players can have lots of fun - capital cities, forests, mountains and beaches have all featured. Maybe that's why they seem to attract much bigger attendances then the US????

I think the main reason the EGC has bigger attendance than the USGC is that Europeans generally have much more accomodating vacation policies than their American counterparts.

kokomi wrote:

vash3g wrote:What would everyone like to see the AGA do over the next three to five years? [...]

Cheaper congress entrance fee.
The pricing is ridiculously high compared to European one.

I just don't know how to easily do that and still have a decent venue. The Congress pricing is, when compared to other American week-long conventions, relatively low.

When we co-hosted it (with Seattle) in Tacoma in 2005, we got price quotes from local colleges, and PLU seemed to be the best choice. (We also checked a few conference centers and hotels -- the colleges were way cheaper.) To reduce the price, we'd have had to either get financial sponsorship, or operate at a loss, or reduce the quality of the venue, or reduce the length of time, or come up with some idea we didn't think of.

I believe that Hitachi and Japan Air Lines were sponsors at the Cleveland Congress in 1996. (IIrc, I saw a photo of sponsor banners from that event -- that's why I believe that.) In 2005, I think we tried to get Toyota interested in sponsoring -- after all, they were sponsoring the N.A. Oza and they were selling a pickup truck called the Tacoma -- but for some reason, I think it never got off the ground; I don't remember why. I think we did have sponsorship of some sort for some of the events (I think IGS put forth some resources for the Pair Go tournament, for example). But sponsorship can be a two-edged sword: the members can feel like the organization has sold out, or isn't getting enough money from the sponsors; the sponsors can feel like they aren't getting enough value for their money; etc. I think it requires a talented "people" person to handle it well -- my current skill set would be inadequate -- which gets us back to the "volunteers" question.

Operating at a loss is not OK with me. AFAIK, Congresses generally end with a small profit that gets split between the AGA and the local organizing clubs, who use the money to further spread Go. (In our case, we used the money to send a couple of kids to Go Camp and to defray expenses of some tournaments, including a national youth qualifier event; and I'm pretty sure we still have a little left in an interest-bearing account.) This is way better than operating at a slight loss.

Choice of venue is an engineering compromise between quality and cost. I feel that the Congresses I've attended have pretty much hit the mark. People always complain about the food (except for the one in New Mexico in 1998 -- people who were there (which doesn't include me) still talk about how great the food was), and the dorm rooms generally are not luxurious; but I have found them to be adequate and reasonably priced. In 2005 we seriously considered having it at a conference center in a state park on the Olympic Peninsula -- absolutely gorgeous surroundings, right on the beach -- but between the additional cost, the additional travel from the nearest airports, and the restrictive booking policies of the government organization that handled it, we decided it was infeasible. Unless the AGA purchases a conference center in Kansas or a hotel in Indiana (which -- hey, that might not be a bad idea, given the real estate slump), I don't know how to reduce the cost of the venue. If you have ideas on this, I'm very interested.

A three-day weekend event, like the Congress I attended in Canada (when it was near Vancouver BC), would cost much less than a week-long event. But having a whole week of Go sure is fun, so that's not my first choice for bringing down the cost.

So basically, I feel that for what attendees get, the cost of the Congress is pretty low. It is still high compared to the European Congresses -- and I need to learn more about how they are able to do that, and see what can be applied in the U.S. But I suspect their cost structures are just different than ours.

If you have suggestions for how to trim the cost, please share them.

I'd like to suggest making a "sticky" topic in this forum with useful AGA links (bylaws, board meeting minutes, tournament rules, officers, etc.). I know you can get to that stuff through usgo.org but I think it'll still be useful to have a handy reference at the top of this forum.

In my plethora of posts above (sorry for quadruple-posting... I've been "away" a while, and I guess I overdid it in my enthusiasm about being "back"), I mostly focused on the Go Congress. To wrap that up --
More timely announcements of Congress info -- Helluva good idea; mostly in the hands of the local volunteers organizing the shindig
Dual Congresses -- Interesting; it worked OK for the N.A. Oza tournaments. I'd be willing to experiment with it, but my gut instinct is that "there can be only one" per year.
Fixed Congress location(s) year after year -- Also interesting, especially if it significantly reduces costs. I think the way it's done now, with different clubs around the country hosting it, has good points as well as difficulties. Overall, I lean toward the current system, but if lots of other folks prefer two (East, West) or three (plus Midwest) fixed locations, I'd be OK with that.
Lower cost -- I'm interested, eager even; but I don't know how.

The original question -- What would everyone like to see the AGA do over the next three to five years? -- is a worthy one. The Congress is a cool event, but not the reason I joined the AGA in the first place.

The AGA is useful to me to the extent that it helps "spread Go" and helps me play interesting games. So that's what I want the AGA to do for the next five years. So, continue to help local club / chapter organizers (there was a mentoring program -- I was involved with it, but then I flaked out and disappeared; don't know the current status of it). And, continue to foster local, regional, national, and international tournaments and other opportunities to play; and continue the ratings system, maybe bringing it into accord with the EGF ratings system (though I like having the sigma).

Specifically, I'd like to see the AGA offer formal orientation and ongoing training for chapter officers. There are info packets and PDF downloads, and those are good, but I think we can do better. In particular, topics useful to me would include basic leadership stuff (how to gracefully delegate, how to motivate others, how to motivate yourself, how to avoid burnout) and basic salesmanship stuff. And probably there should be stuff about Roberts Rules of Order or similar, or at least how to efficiently run a Chapter meeting; and suggestions (even role-playing) for dealing with players who may be (for example), ah, strong on the board but unusually challenged in the interpersonal skills department. I guess this stuff is costly -- at least, companies seem to pay lots to send their managers to seminars on these things. But there must be some way to do it, maybe with YouTube or VOIP conference calls?

Also, I'd like to see a Tournament Director and Assistant TD training program. Again, there's stuff available to read, but I think we can do better. And I think that online tournaments are sufficiently different that they merit additional training, perhaps even server-specific training.

Well, thats my 2¢ for now. I'll shut up and let someone else speak.

New ideas for fund-raising appears to be of interest to the AGA right now. Clearly, fund-raising must be successful to allow other organizational goals to be met. Along that line of thought, I'll offer the following idea.

There are certain credit cards called affinity credit cards that instead of offering perks like free airline miles,instead make a small donation to specific non-profit organization with each purchase.

Would it be possible for the AGA to partner with a financial institution to offer an AGA affinity credit card (with awesome AGA logo)?

One such possible program is: capital one affinity portal.

links:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affinity_credit_card
https://www.cardlabconnect.com/AffinityPortal

Just one other observation on the Congress pricing: The Europeans don't actually book rooms for their people, from what I understand. They have campsites available, and people can stay at hotels at their own expense. I think if you add the cost of lodging in, you will find that the US Congress is quite reasonably priced. I may be mistaken about this, but I seem to recall reading somewhere that Euro Congress folk were sleeping on the floor in gymnasiums, and at campsites. Either of these options would be awful for me, I wouldn't attend if those were my choices.

On the other note, about the mentoring program, that is still going strong. It is an activity of the AGF though, not the AGA. I run the program, and we provide equipment and support to youth programs for free, and to College programs at a reduced rate, in conjunction with the AGA. More information on our activities is here: http://agfgo.org

shimari wrote: I wouldn't attend if those were my choices.

I think you meant, you wouldn't attend if those were your only choices.

I would be more likely to attend if I had at least those additional options.

rubin427 wrote:New ideas for fund-raising appears to be of interest to the AGA right now. Clearly, fund-raising must be successful to allow other organizational goals to be met. Along that line of thought, I'll offer the following idea.

There are certain credit cards called affinity credit cards that instead of offering perks like free airline miles,instead make a small donation to specific non-profit organization with each purchase.

Would it be possible for the AGA to partner with a financial institution to offer an AGA affinity credit card (with awesome AGA logo)?

One such possible program is: capital one affinity portal.

links:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affinity_credit_card
https://www.cardlabconnect.com/AffinityPortal

I just looked at those affinity cards, and that seems like a really good idea. I am passing it on to the President and a board member. I would certainly carry an AGA credit card, we could even have a nice go stones image in the background, and the logo on top.

shimari wrote:Just one other observation on the Congress pricing: The Europeans don't actually book rooms for their people, from what I understand. They have campsites available, and people can stay at hotels at their own expense. I think if you add the cost of lodging in, you will find that the US Congress is quite reasonably priced.

In my opinion, if you want to convince people that the US Congress is reasonably priced, the last thing you want to do is make a comparison to the European prices.

The Registration fee for the US Congress is $325, $250 if you are under 22 years of age.

For one week.

Early registration in Finland, the fee is 100 euro (150 for later registration) kids under 12 are free and additional family members are discounted as much as 60%.

For two weeks.

The cheapest the US congress provides for accomadation is 325$ which requires a further $190 payment for the meal plan. That is more than 40 dollars a night for dorm style accomadations - the hotels listed on the European website start at about $40 euros per night, but that is per room, and you can bunk up with folks.

Since I know you run the Children's congress lets compare a family of 4 at both places. A dad player, a son 13 player and a daughter 10 player and a wife non player.

At the U.S. Dad - 325, Son - 250, Daughter - 250, Wife 60 - $885.

At the European - Dad 100, Son 80, Daughter - free, wife 60 or free - total 240 euros. FOR TWO WEEKS.

Lodging - U.S. 4 times 325 is the cheapest option - $1300. Plus another $760 for the meal plan.

Lodging Europe - the recomended hotel is "4 bedded" at 50 euros a night. A family could stay for 20 days for the US Congress price that you decide to argue compares favorably.

It is easy, even in the US, for 4 people to stay at a hotel - with breakfast, for under 100 a night.

Show me what compares favorably?

Ah, thank you for actual numbers - I have never seen any before. You are right, those prices are much cheaper. I have been involved in a number of congresses, and we have never been able to come anywhere close to any of those prices. As mentioned elsewhere, doing it at a hotel would actually be much more expensive for us. Perhaps this sort of thing is just cheaper in Europe.

Are the Euro congresses decentralized? By that I mean, are people staying at all sorts of different locations, and it is up to them to get to whichever events they go to? We try to have everything in walking distance, and all at the same site.

For reference, you can choose not to get the lodging/meal package, and we list which hotels are close on the congress website. In your example, a family of four who don't mind sharing two beds, could pay $647 for the week at a hotel. More realistically, two adults could share a room with two beds for $425 or so. These rates are at a Super8 Motel nearby, one of the cheaper chains in America, and they are still higher than you say it would be in Europe. You might need to have a car to stay at one of the offsite hotels though (in Portland it was right downtown, which was nice). These rates are cheaper than staying at the Congress location, depending on your situation. We don't require people to stay in any particular location, and many do choose hotels. Staying on campus is probably more fun though, and you have access to everything very quickly.

Judging from my (limited) travels in Europe, we Americans are quite spoiled and are not generally willing to put up with the conditions at European hostel type accommodations. (I didn't mind too much but I know lots of people who would). I could be wrong but my impression is that hotels in the states are generally nicer and more expensive (approaching double).

I only have experience with academic conferences, but a full week's expenses at such would be around $1300, which would include the program fee, hotel room, but without meals. These are held at rather large luxury hotels, with hotel conference rooms provided, large banquet halls for keynote speakers, exhibitor halls, etc. As long as the association fills the bank of rooms promised in the contract, the association actually makes money on the whole thing.

Of course, most academic conferences are only 5 days long at most and almost no one stays for the entire 5 days unless you're part of the conference crew. Hotels typically charge by the room, with minor added expenses for more than two individuals, e.g., kids. Nevertheless, students typically share rooms and expenses for the same cost as a single individual.

I'm sure the AGA has priced these options out, but it seems that given Horibe's figures, the difference is not all that much, especially considering the vast difference in accommodations. I suppose figuring in meals for an entire week would change things, but $760 for a meal plan is beyond excessive in my opinion.

deja wrote:I suppose figuring in meals for an entire week would change things, but $760 for a meal plan is beyond excessive in my opinion.

Our meal plan is $190 dollars, for three meals a day and basically 6 days with full food service. That is about $10 per meal, which doesn't seem particularly excessive to me.

shimari wrote:

deja wrote:I suppose figuring in meals for an entire week would change things, but $760 for a meal plan is beyond excessive in my opinion.

Our meal plan is $190 dollars, for three meals a day and basically 6 days with full food service. That is about $10 per meal, which doesn't seem particularly excessive to me.

Yes, that changes things quite a bit. My bad...

Membership, or the lack thereof, is a real problem for the AGA. One thing worth considering is mandating the chapter heads to call TV stations and newspapers well in advance of a tournament and getting it published. good press is important to let parents know there is something out there called go. most people have no @@@@ing idea that there is Go. I am ashamed of the AGA for this.

In addition, many of the Asian papers around the US would love to see tournaments about go published in their papers.

We need to publish our tournaments and get people involved.

Just some thoughts,

PGWM


PS: Another thing is Congress pricing. It's stupid. I pay $35.00 per year to pay $325 for 6 days. the Euro Congress is apparently much better for much cheaper.

This is surprising, I never thought the EU folks could agree on much of anything. I wonder who actually makes these deals such that the prices are so high here in the US?

can anyone shed light on the approximate costs of the 2011 congress in LA?