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115 - robinz v. 1986

https://lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?t=3740

Page 30 of 31

Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986

Posted: Wed Jul 27, 2011 7:24 am
by emeraldemon
instead of this I think W should play H8, then I think maybe A9 is a bit bigger.

Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986

Posted: Wed Jul 27, 2011 10:08 am
by robinz
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm251 Prisoner Count :w35: :b13:
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . O X . X . X X O . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . X O X . X O X X X O . . . |
$$ | . . O . O X . O X . X X O O O O O O O |
$$ | . . . O O X . X . X X O O X X X X O X |
$$ | . . . O X . X O . X O . . O . . X X X |
$$ | . . O . O X . X X O O O O . O X . . X |
$$ | . . O X O . . . . . X . . O . X X X . |
$$ | . O X O O O O . . . . X O . X . X . X |
$$ | . O X X . X X X . O . X . X . X . . . |
$$ | . O X , X . . . X O O . X X X X X . X |
$$ | . . X X X . . X X O . O X . . . X . X |
$$ | . X X O . . . 1 O O . O O X X . . . . |
$$ | X X . X X X X X O X . . . O X . X . . |
$$ | . . . X X O O X O . . . . O X X X X . |
$$ | X X . X X X O O X X . . O . O X . X . |
$$ | X . X O O O . O O , . . . O O X O X X |
$$ | X X X O . O . . . . O . . O . O X X . |
$$ | X O O . . O . . . . . . . . . O X O X |
$$ | O . O O O . . . . . . . . . . O O O O |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


Only threatens a half-point ko - I can't see any further consequences if I lose it. As a result, I'm playing here instead, as I'm sure it's bigger.

PS: I accept that the game is lost for me unless something very strange happens, so I hope I'm getting those nice notes from Ed (although I don't think my endgame is very good, I've definitely pulled something back in the past few moves, even if that's due to my opponent's understandable desire to simplify things at the cost of a few points. Plus the endgame is I think the part of the game that it's easiest to play better at in a slow format like this.)

Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986

Posted: Wed Jul 27, 2011 4:00 pm
by jts
The ko is fairly big... B can probably get points at D14 and G14 if he connects and plays G13.

Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986

Posted: Wed Jul 27, 2011 4:59 pm
by lightvector
Bill will probably need to correct me on this, but I think the filling the ko is 5/6 of a point?

A standard "half point ko" is a 1 point swing over the course of 3 moves, so capturing/filling it is worth 1/3 of a point.

There's an additional 1 point because white will need to connect at D14, so that bring the value up to 2 points of swing over 3 moves, so 2/3 of a point.

If black wins, black can play G13 afterward for one more point (while also preventing white from connecting to the right), but white can play G13 himself to take the option away in gote. So that's another 1/2 point of value for black, so a total of 2+1/2 points of swing over 3 moves, so 5/6 of a point for the ko.

White playing G13 is almost worth more, because black might have to fill at J15 if white cuts at G14, but I think there's no threat. If white cuts, black can play J13 and connect his group out, to avoid having to fill. If white plays J13 instead of cutting, black can push at H13, having enough time to both prevent white from connecting and get G14 himself, so that he doesn't have to fill at J15.

Anyways, tedomari and ko threat issues aside, this means that black's play is probably okay, because blocking white's push is 1 point, which is more than 5/6 of a point. White should have played there himself in sente.

Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986

Posted: Wed Jul 27, 2011 5:51 pm
by 1986
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm252 Prisoner Count :w35: :b13:
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . O X . X . X X O . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . X O X . X O X X X O . . . |
$$ | . . O . O X . O X . X X O O O O O O O |
$$ | . . . O O X . X . X X O O X X X X O X |
$$ | . . . O X . X O . X O . . O . . X X X |
$$ | . . O . O X . X X O O O O . O X . . X |
$$ | . . O X O . . . . 1 X . . O . X X X . |
$$ | . O X O O O O . . . . X O . X . X . X |
$$ | . O X X . X X X . O . X . X . X . . . |
$$ | . O X , X . . . X O O . X X X X X . X |
$$ | . . X X X . . X X O . O X . . . X . X |
$$ | . X X O . . . X O O . O O X X . . . . |
$$ | X X . X X X X X O X . . . O X . X . . |
$$ | . . . X X O O X O . . . . O X X X X . |
$$ | X X . X X X O O X X . . O . O X . X . |
$$ | X . X O O O . O O , . . . O O X O X X |
$$ | X X X O . O . . . . O . . O . O X X . |
$$ | X O O . . O . . . . . . . . . O X O X |
$$ | O . O O O . . . . . . . . . . O O O O |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


pretty much just filling in some neutral points in center

Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986

Posted: Thu Jul 28, 2011 10:35 am
by robinz
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm253 Prisoner Count :w35: :b13:
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . O X . X . X X O . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . X O X . X O X X X O . . . |
$$ | . . O . O X . O X . X X O O O O O O O |
$$ | . . . O O X . X . X X O O X X X X O X |
$$ | . . . O X . X O . X O . . O . . X X X |
$$ | . . O . O X . X X O O O O . O X . . X |
$$ | . . O X O . . . . O X . . O . X X X . |
$$ | . O X O O O O . 1 . . X O . X . X . X |
$$ | . O X X . X X X . O . X . X . X . . . |
$$ | . O X , X . . . X O O . X X X X X . X |
$$ | . . X X X . . X X O . O X . . . X . X |
$$ | . X X O . . . X O O . O O X X . . . . |
$$ | X X . X X X X X O X . . . O X . X . . |
$$ | . . . X X O O X O . . . . O X X X X . |
$$ | X X . X X X O O X X . . O . O X . X . |
$$ | X . X O O O . O O , . . . O O X O X X |
$$ | X X X O . O . . . . O . . O . O X X . |
$$ | X O O . . O . . . . . . . . . O X O X |
$$ | O . O O O . . . . . . . . . . O O O O |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


I'm very interested in what all these comments, in the very late endgame when the result, although not the margin, is already decided, could be about :)

Anyway, this is 1-point gote, but I think that's what we're down to. The reason it's worth a point - and I must admit that it took me a while to see that any move in this region of the board is worth any points at all - is that white could, had I tenukied (I was going to play F18), play the sente atari at L12, and then played here himself, to give himself a point at K12. I can make it locally a "false eye", but he can't ever be forced to fill it as he is alive on both sides, so it still scores a point for him.

The reason I choose this move instead of F18 - or any other of the remaining 1-point gotes - is that my opponent *might* feel tempted to respond to this one :lol: And perhaps it may be of help in making G14 a point of my territory, although I seriously doubt that will be possible.

Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986

Posted: Thu Jul 28, 2011 11:58 am
by 1986
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm254 Prisoner Count :w35: :b13:
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . O X . X . X X O . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . X O X . X O X X X O . . . |
$$ | . . O . O X . O X . X X O O O O O O O |
$$ | . . . O O X . X . X X O O X X X X O X |
$$ | . . . O X . X O . X O . . O 1 . X X X |
$$ | . . O . O X . X X O O O O . O X . . X |
$$ | . . O X O . . . . O X . . O . X X X . |
$$ | . O X O O O O . X . . X O . X . X . X |
$$ | . O X X . X X X . O . X . X . X . . . |
$$ | . O X , X . . . X O O . X X X X X . X |
$$ | . . X X X . . X X O . O X . . . X . X |
$$ | . X X O . . . X O O . O O X X . . . . |
$$ | X X . X X X X X O X . . . O X . X . . |
$$ | . . . X X O O X O . . . . O X X X X . |
$$ | X X . X X X O O X X . . O . O X . X . |
$$ | X . X O O O . O O , . . . O O X O X X |
$$ | X X X O . O . . . . O . . O . O X X . |
$$ | X O O . . O . . . . . . . . . O X O X |
$$ | O . O O O . . . . . . . . . . O O O O |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


im just fillling in the dame now

Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986

Posted: Thu Jul 28, 2011 12:09 pm
by robinz
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm255 Prisoner Count :w35: :b13:
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . O X . X . X X O . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O 1 X O X . X O X X X O . . . |
$$ | . . O . O X . O X . X X O O O O O O O |
$$ | . . . O O X . X . X X O O X X X X O X |
$$ | . . . O X . X O . X O . . O O . X X X |
$$ | . . O . O X . X X O O O O . O X . . X |
$$ | . . O X O . . . . O X . . O . X X X . |
$$ | . O X O O O O . X . . X O . X . X . X |
$$ | . O X X . X X X . O . X . X . X . . . |
$$ | . O X , X . . . X O O . X X X X X . X |
$$ | . . X X X . . X X O . O X . . . X . X |
$$ | . X X O . . . X O O . O O X X . . . . |
$$ | X X . X X X X X O X . . . O X . X . . |
$$ | . . . X X O O X O . . . . O X X X X . |
$$ | X X . X X X O O X X . . O . O X . X . |
$$ | X . X O O O . O O , . . . O O X O X X |
$$ | X X X O . O . . . . O . . O . O X X . |
$$ | X O O . . O . . . . . . . . . O X O X |
$$ | O . O O O . . . . . . . . . . O O O O |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


That's worth 0 points, as far as I can tell (O14 was always a point for white). So I'll take another point for myself.

Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986

Posted: Thu Jul 28, 2011 12:15 pm
by topazg
@Robinz

robinz wrote:
That's worth 0 points, as far as I can tell (O14 was always a point for white). So I'll take another point for myself.


About 1.5+ points gote actually :)

1 point because if he doesn't, you can get an extra point for P15.
Another 0.5 points because if he doesn't then play P13, you can deprive him of a point by playing there.
And + because there's then a half point ko sitting there.

Bill will I'm sure give values of around half that, but I work in simplified swing values (difference between one player getting there and the other) because I can cope with them quickly :P

Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986

Posted: Thu Jul 28, 2011 12:40 pm
by robinz
@topazg:

D'oh - I'd missed that P15 gave me a point at Q15 :oops: :oops:

I also hadn't thought of P15 from me as being worth anything, since he then has P13 - so it'd be zero points "in sente", only being sente of course if 1986 deems it worth responding to a "threat" of only 1 point (plus half-point ko). But I kind of see why it's worth "half a point", now, having read some of Bill's explanations of such matters in the past. Did I mention that I don't much like the endgame? :lol:

Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986

Posted: Thu Jul 28, 2011 12:54 pm
by 1986
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm256 Prisoner Count :w35: :b13:
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . O X . X . X X O . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X X O X . X O X X X O . . . |
$$ | . . O . O X . O X . X X O O O O O O O |
$$ | . . . O O X . X . X X O O X X X X O X |
$$ | . . . O X . X O . X O . . O O . X X X |
$$ | . . O . O X . X X O O O O . O X . . X |
$$ | . . O X O . . . . O X . . O . X X X . |
$$ | . O X O O O O . X . . X O . X . X . X |
$$ | . O X X . X X X . O . X . X . X . . . |
$$ | . O X , X . . . X O O . X X X X X . X |
$$ | . 1 X X X . . X X O . O X . . . X . X |
$$ | . X X O . . . X O O . O O X X . . . . |
$$ | X X . X X X X X O X . . . O X . X . . |
$$ | . . . X X O O X O . . . . O X X X X . |
$$ | X X . X X X O O X X . . O . O X . X . |
$$ | X . X O O O . O O , . . . O O X O X X |
$$ | X X X O . O . . . . O . . O . O X X . |
$$ | X O O . . O . . . . . . . . . O X O X |
$$ | O . O O O . . . . . . . . . . O O O O |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


alright only a few more moves to go

Posted: Thu Jul 28, 2011 12:59 pm
by EdLee
Is this the first Malkovich that results with a score? :)

Re:

Posted: Thu Jul 28, 2011 1:08 pm
by Kirby
EdLee wrote:
Is this the first Malkovich that results with a score? :)


I lost against Magicwand by 1.5 points in this game:
viewtopic.php?f=37&t=484

Though, in general, these games tend to end in resignation, don't they? :-D

Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986

Posted: Thu Jul 28, 2011 1:10 pm
by robinz
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm257 Prisoner Count :w35: :b13:
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . O X . X . X X O . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X X O X . X O X X X O . . . |
$$ | . . O . O X . O X . X X O O O O O O O |
$$ | . . . O O X . X . X X O O X X X X O X |
$$ | . . . O X . X O . X O . . O O . X X X |
$$ | . . O . O X . X X O O O O . O X . . X |
$$ | . . O X O . . . . O X . . O . X X X . |
$$ | . O X O O O O . X . . X O . X . X . X |
$$ | . O X X . X X X . O . X . X . X . . . |
$$ | . O X , X . . . X O O . X X X X X . X |
$$ | 1 O X X X . . X X O . O X . . . X . X |
$$ | . X X O . . . X O O . O O X X . . . . |
$$ | X X . X X X X X O X . . . O X . X . . |
$$ | . . . X X O O X O . . . . O X X X X . |
$$ | X X . X X X O O X X . . O . O X . X . |
$$ | X . X O O O . O O , . . . O O X O X X |
$$ | X X X O . O . . . . O . . O . O X X . |
$$ | X O O . . O . . . . . . . . . O X O X |
$$ | O . O O O . . . . . . . . . . O O O O |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


1 point gote yet again, I do believe.

Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986

Posted: Thu Jul 28, 2011 3:27 pm
by lightvector
robinz wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm257 Prisoner Count :w35: :b13:
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . O X . X . X X O . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X X O X . X O X X X O . . . |
$$ | . . O . O X . O X . X X O O O O O O O |
$$ | . . . O O X . X . X X O O X X X X O X |
$$ | . . . O X . X O . X O . . O O . X X X |
$$ | . . O . O X . X X O O O O . O X . . X |
$$ | . . O X O . . . . O X . . O . X X X . |
$$ | . O X O O O O . X . . X O . X . X . X |
$$ | . O X X . X X X . O . X . X . X . . . |
$$ | . O X , X . . . X O O . X X X X X . X |
$$ | 1 O X X X . . X X O . O X . . . X . X |
$$ | . X X O . . . X O O . O O X X . . . . |
$$ | X X . X X X X X O X . . . O X . X . . |
$$ | . . . X X O O X O . . . . O X X X X . |
$$ | X X . X X X O O X X . . O . O X . X . |
$$ | X . X O O O . O O , . . . O O X O X X |
$$ | X X X O . O . . . . O . . O . O X X . |
$$ | X O O . . O . . . . . . . . . O X O X |
$$ | O . O O O . . . . . . . . . . O O O O |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


1 point gote yet again, I do believe.


I think it's sente, and 2/3 of a point (comparable in value to gote plays that are 4/3 pts swing). It would be intolerable if black could push again, because white ends up needing B13, so white needs to block. And after white blocks, black has reduced white by a point compared to if white played first, and then black can tenuki because it's only a 1/3 point ko remaining where black's stone is one-third captured.
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