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115 - robinz v. 1986

https://lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?t=3740

Page 30 of 31

Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986

Posted: Thu Jul 28, 2011 10:35 am
by robinz
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm253 Prisoner Count :w35: :b13:
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . O X . X . X X O . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . X O X . X O X X X O . . . |
$$ | . . O . O X . O X . X X O O O O O O O |
$$ | . . . O O X . X . X X O O X X X X O X |
$$ | . . . O X . X O . X O . . O . . X X X |
$$ | . . O . O X . X X O O O O . O X . . X |
$$ | . . O X O . . . . O X . . O . X X X . |
$$ | . O X O O O O . 1 . . X O . X . X . X |
$$ | . O X X . X X X . O . X . X . X . . . |
$$ | . O X , X . . . X O O . X X X X X . X |
$$ | . . X X X . . X X O . O X . . . X . X |
$$ | . X X O . . . X O O . O O X X . . . . |
$$ | X X . X X X X X O X . . . O X . X . . |
$$ | . . . X X O O X O . . . . O X X X X . |
$$ | X X . X X X O O X X . . O . O X . X . |
$$ | X . X O O O . O O , . . . O O X O X X |
$$ | X X X O . O . . . . O . . O . O X X . |
$$ | X O O . . O . . . . . . . . . O X O X |
$$ | O . O O O . . . . . . . . . . O O O O |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
I'm very interested in what all these comments, in the very late endgame when the result, although not the margin, is already decided, could be about :)

Anyway, this is 1-point gote, but I think that's what we're down to. The reason it's worth a point - and I must admit that it took me a while to see that any move in this region of the board is worth any points at all - is that white could, had I tenukied (I was going to play F18), play the sente atari at L12, and then played here himself, to give himself a point at K12. I can make it locally a "false eye", but he can't ever be forced to fill it as he is alive on both sides, so it still scores a point for him.

The reason I choose this move instead of F18 - or any other of the remaining 1-point gotes - is that my opponent *might* feel tempted to respond to this one :lol: And perhaps it may be of help in making G14 a point of my territory, although I seriously doubt that will be possible.

Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986

Posted: Thu Jul 28, 2011 11:58 am
by 1986
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm254 Prisoner Count :w35: :b13:
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . O X . X . X X O . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . X O X . X O X X X O . . . |
$$ | . . O . O X . O X . X X O O O O O O O |
$$ | . . . O O X . X . X X O O X X X X O X |
$$ | . . . O X . X O . X O . . O 1 . X X X |
$$ | . . O . O X . X X O O O O . O X . . X |
$$ | . . O X O . . . . O X . . O . X X X . |
$$ | . O X O O O O . X . . X O . X . X . X |
$$ | . O X X . X X X . O . X . X . X . . . |
$$ | . O X , X . . . X O O . X X X X X . X |
$$ | . . X X X . . X X O . O X . . . X . X |
$$ | . X X O . . . X O O . O O X X . . . . |
$$ | X X . X X X X X O X . . . O X . X . . |
$$ | . . . X X O O X O . . . . O X X X X . |
$$ | X X . X X X O O X X . . O . O X . X . |
$$ | X . X O O O . O O , . . . O O X O X X |
$$ | X X X O . O . . . . O . . O . O X X . |
$$ | X O O . . O . . . . . . . . . O X O X |
$$ | O . O O O . . . . . . . . . . O O O O |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
im just fillling in the dame now

Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986

Posted: Thu Jul 28, 2011 12:09 pm
by robinz
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm255 Prisoner Count :w35: :b13:
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . O X . X . X X O . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O 1 X O X . X O X X X O . . . |
$$ | . . O . O X . O X . X X O O O O O O O |
$$ | . . . O O X . X . X X O O X X X X O X |
$$ | . . . O X . X O . X O . . O O . X X X |
$$ | . . O . O X . X X O O O O . O X . . X |
$$ | . . O X O . . . . O X . . O . X X X . |
$$ | . O X O O O O . X . . X O . X . X . X |
$$ | . O X X . X X X . O . X . X . X . . . |
$$ | . O X , X . . . X O O . X X X X X . X |
$$ | . . X X X . . X X O . O X . . . X . X |
$$ | . X X O . . . X O O . O O X X . . . . |
$$ | X X . X X X X X O X . . . O X . X . . |
$$ | . . . X X O O X O . . . . O X X X X . |
$$ | X X . X X X O O X X . . O . O X . X . |
$$ | X . X O O O . O O , . . . O O X O X X |
$$ | X X X O . O . . . . O . . O . O X X . |
$$ | X O O . . O . . . . . . . . . O X O X |
$$ | O . O O O . . . . . . . . . . O O O O |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
That's worth 0 points, as far as I can tell (O14 was always a point for white). So I'll take another point for myself.

Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986

Posted: Thu Jul 28, 2011 12:15 pm
by topazg
@Robinz
robinz wrote:
That's worth 0 points, as far as I can tell (O14 was always a point for white). So I'll take another point for myself.
About 1.5+ points gote actually :)

1 point because if he doesn't, you can get an extra point for P15.
Another 0.5 points because if he doesn't then play P13, you can deprive him of a point by playing there.
And + because there's then a half point ko sitting there.

Bill will I'm sure give values of around half that, but I work in simplified swing values (difference between one player getting there and the other) because I can cope with them quickly :P

Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986

Posted: Thu Jul 28, 2011 12:40 pm
by robinz
@topazg:
D'oh - I'd missed that P15 gave me a point at Q15 :oops: :oops:

I also hadn't thought of P15 from me as being worth anything, since he then has P13 - so it'd be zero points "in sente", only being sente of course if 1986 deems it worth responding to a "threat" of only 1 point (plus half-point ko). But I kind of see why it's worth "half a point", now, having read some of Bill's explanations of such matters in the past. Did I mention that I don't much like the endgame? :lol:

Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986

Posted: Thu Jul 28, 2011 12:54 pm
by 1986
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm256 Prisoner Count :w35: :b13:
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . O X . X . X X O . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X X O X . X O X X X O . . . |
$$ | . . O . O X . O X . X X O O O O O O O |
$$ | . . . O O X . X . X X O O X X X X O X |
$$ | . . . O X . X O . X O . . O O . X X X |
$$ | . . O . O X . X X O O O O . O X . . X |
$$ | . . O X O . . . . O X . . O . X X X . |
$$ | . O X O O O O . X . . X O . X . X . X |
$$ | . O X X . X X X . O . X . X . X . . . |
$$ | . O X , X . . . X O O . X X X X X . X |
$$ | . 1 X X X . . X X O . O X . . . X . X |
$$ | . X X O . . . X O O . O O X X . . . . |
$$ | X X . X X X X X O X . . . O X . X . . |
$$ | . . . X X O O X O . . . . O X X X X . |
$$ | X X . X X X O O X X . . O . O X . X . |
$$ | X . X O O O . O O , . . . O O X O X X |
$$ | X X X O . O . . . . O . . O . O X X . |
$$ | X O O . . O . . . . . . . . . O X O X |
$$ | O . O O O . . . . . . . . . . O O O O |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
alright only a few more moves to go

Posted: Thu Jul 28, 2011 12:59 pm
by EdLee
Is this the first Malkovich that results with a score? :)

Re:

Posted: Thu Jul 28, 2011 1:08 pm
by Kirby
EdLee wrote:
Is this the first Malkovich that results with a score? :)
I lost against Magicwand by 1.5 points in this game:
http://lifein19x19.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=37&t=484

Though, in general, these games tend to end in resignation, don't they? :-D

Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986

Posted: Thu Jul 28, 2011 1:10 pm
by robinz
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm257 Prisoner Count :w35: :b13:
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . O X . X . X X O . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X X O X . X O X X X O . . . |
$$ | . . O . O X . O X . X X O O O O O O O |
$$ | . . . O O X . X . X X O O X X X X O X |
$$ | . . . O X . X O . X O . . O O . X X X |
$$ | . . O . O X . X X O O O O . O X . . X |
$$ | . . O X O . . . . O X . . O . X X X . |
$$ | . O X O O O O . X . . X O . X . X . X |
$$ | . O X X . X X X . O . X . X . X . . . |
$$ | . O X , X . . . X O O . X X X X X . X |
$$ | 1 O X X X . . X X O . O X . . . X . X |
$$ | . X X O . . . X O O . O O X X . . . . |
$$ | X X . X X X X X O X . . . O X . X . . |
$$ | . . . X X O O X O . . . . O X X X X . |
$$ | X X . X X X O O X X . . O . O X . X . |
$$ | X . X O O O . O O , . . . O O X O X X |
$$ | X X X O . O . . . . O . . O . O X X . |
$$ | X O O . . O . . . . . . . . . O X O X |
$$ | O . O O O . . . . . . . . . . O O O O |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
1 point gote yet again, I do believe.

Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986

Posted: Thu Jul 28, 2011 3:27 pm
by lightvector
robinz wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm257 Prisoner Count :w35: :b13:
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . O X . X . X X O . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X X O X . X O X X X O . . . |
$$ | . . O . O X . O X . X X O O O O O O O |
$$ | . . . O O X . X . X X O O X X X X O X |
$$ | . . . O X . X O . X O . . O O . X X X |
$$ | . . O . O X . X X O O O O . O X . . X |
$$ | . . O X O . . . . O X . . O . X X X . |
$$ | . O X O O O O . X . . X O . X . X . X |
$$ | . O X X . X X X . O . X . X . X . . . |
$$ | . O X , X . . . X O O . X X X X X . X |
$$ | 1 O X X X . . X X O . O X . . . X . X |
$$ | . X X O . . . X O O . O O X X . . . . |
$$ | X X . X X X X X O X . . . O X . X . . |
$$ | . . . X X O O X O . . . . O X X X X . |
$$ | X X . X X X O O X X . . O . O X . X . |
$$ | X . X O O O . O O , . . . O O X O X X |
$$ | X X X O . O . . . . O . . O . O X X . |
$$ | X O O . . O . . . . . . . . . O X O X |
$$ | O . O O O . . . . . . . . . . O O O O |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
1 point gote yet again, I do believe.
I think it's sente, and 2/3 of a point (comparable in value to gote plays that are 4/3 pts swing). It would be intolerable if black could push again, because white ends up needing B13, so white needs to block. And after white blocks, black has reduced white by a point compared to if white played first, and then black can tenuki because it's only a 1/3 point ko remaining where black's stone is one-third captured.

Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986

Posted: Fri Jul 29, 2011 8:19 am
by 1986
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm258 Prisoner Count :w35: :b13:
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . O X . X . X X O . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X X O X . X O X X X O . . . |
$$ | . . O . O X . O X . X X O O O O O O O |
$$ | . . . O O X . X . X X O O X X X X O X |
$$ | . . . O X . X O . X O . . O O . X X X |
$$ | . . O . O X . X X O O O O . O X . . X |
$$ | . . O X O . . . . O X . . O . X X X . |
$$ | . O X O O O O . X . . X O . X . X . X |
$$ | . O X X . X X X . O . X . X . X . . . |
$$ | 1 O X , X . . . X O O . X X X X X . X |
$$ | X O X X X . . X X O . O X . . . X . X |
$$ | . X X O . . . X O O . O O X X . . . . |
$$ | X X . X X X X X O X . . . O X . X . . |
$$ | . . . X X O O X O . . . . O X X X X . |
$$ | X X . X X X O O X X . . O . O X . X . |
$$ | X . X O O O . O O , . . . O O X O X X |
$$ | X X X O . O . . . . O . . O . O X X . |
$$ | X O O . . O . . . . . . . . . O X O X |
$$ | O . O O O . . . . . . . . . . O O O O |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
this move is automatic, by my manual count i should be about 6 points ahead plus komi

Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986

Posted: Fri Jul 29, 2011 11:57 am
by robinz
I've had a change of heart about playing this endgame - I see no point in dragging this game out for a few more days. I resign - I can clearly no longer make any significant dent in your lead of about 7/8 points. Thankyou very much for the game :)

I'm sure we both made a lot of mistakes in this game - but it was an awful lot of fun. (I like fighting, although I like it more when it goes better for me :lol:) I should never have let you get that ko in the lower right - that ultimately cost me the game, I think - one major reading fail and I could never come back.

Thanks again for the game. Now I am looking forward to reading the mountain of comments made by oberservers - thanks all in advance for all the good advice I'm sure I'm going to read :D (I'm particularly intrigued by all these comments towards the game when I thought the result was basically never in doubt - I am prepared to do a headdesk if it turns out I've missed some obvious way to make back a lot of points...)

Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986

Posted: Fri Jul 29, 2011 12:00 pm
by Kirby
Thanks for the game, guys.

Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986

Posted: Fri Jul 29, 2011 12:12 pm
by Marcus
Good Game.

Don't worry, robinz, some of those comments were stronger players counting the board. (I did it for practice, for instance).

Posted: Fri Jul 29, 2011 1:03 pm
by EdLee
Good work, both of you. :)
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