#240 awef vs jeromie

User avatar
EdLee
Honinbo
Posts: 8859
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 6:49 pm
GD Posts: 312
Location: Santa Barbara, CA
Has thanked: 349 times
Been thanked: 2070 times

Post by EdLee »

Hi Jeromie,
jeromie wrote:(2 can't be cut off):
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O 4 O 1 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . 5 . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

What's your sequence after :b5: ?
User avatar
EdLee
Honinbo
Posts: 8859
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 6:49 pm
GD Posts: 312
Location: Santa Barbara, CA
Has thanked: 349 times
Been thanked: 2070 times

Post by EdLee »

Hmm, :w16: = :wc: is interesting, but seems to have some shape problems:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . , O . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . B . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

How about :w1: instead ?
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . , O . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . B . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Uberdude
Judan
Posts: 6727
Joined: Thu Nov 24, 2011 11:35 am
Rank: UK 4 dan
GD Posts: 0
KGS: Uberdude 4d
OGS: Uberdude 7d
Location: Cambridge, UK
Has thanked: 436 times
Been thanked: 3718 times

Re: #240 awef vs jeromie

Post by Uberdude »

EdLee wrote:Hmm, :w16: = :wc: is interesting, but seems to have some shape problems:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . , O . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . B . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

How about :w1: instead ?
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . , O . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . B . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Yeah, if white wants to play in that corner rather than answer the approach I prefer the press, though white does have this clamp:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . , O . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . B . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Black could simply connect and white has lots of cuts, or there is this technique below. White has no good move after 5 so would have to play 4 at a and trade the corner for thickness. Maybe it's better for black to play 3 first but then white won't clamp.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 3 O . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . 5 O . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X a 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . B . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
jeromie
Lives in sente
Posts: 902
Joined: Fri Jan 31, 2014 7:12 pm
Rank: AGA 3k
GD Posts: 0
Universal go server handle: jeromie
Location: Fort Collins, CO
Has thanked: 319 times
Been thanked: 287 times

Re: Re:

Post by jeromie »

EdLee wrote:Hi Jeromie,
jeromie wrote:(2 can't be cut off):
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O 4 O 1 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . 5 . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

What's your sequence after :b5: ?


When I wrote that I saw this:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . 4 X 1 X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 O X 5 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


And this (black can cut off the stone if he gives up the right side and corner, but I didn't think he would. Looking at the result more closely, 6 at 7 leaves black with two decently strong outside groups while white has a relatively small corner, so it's probably not bad for black.:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X 6 . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . 2 X 1 X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X 3 5 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 4 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


But missed this, which does cut it off and isn't good for white. I think the bottom can still live, but it will likely be enclosed and pressed down, and black can probably make big profit by attacking the T shaped group.:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . 8 4 X 1 X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 3 O X 6 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 5 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


It seems a silly oversight in retrospect.
awef
Dies in gote
Posts: 32
Joined: Fri Jul 25, 2014 7:38 am
Rank: 9 kyu
GD Posts: 0
KGS: awef 9kyu
Online playing schedule: kgs most saturdays and sundays 10:30am-1:30pm ET.

Re: #240 awef vs jeromie

Post by awef »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$cm11 awef(B) v jeromie(W) 6.5 komi
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . , 4 . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I think my previous move, Black 15, was bad. Now jermoie can harass me and build nice thickness. Playing Black 17 originally would have been better. A lot can happen here because my stones are so thin, but I've been running through variations starting with a white move in between black 15 and 17, e.g.,

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 awef(B) v jeromie(W) 6.5 komi
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . , O . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 7 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 4 3 O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | 8 . X 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 0 , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . 2 . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I think I can manage on the left side but I'll be worried about his thickness in the upper left, my group in the top right is beginning to feel shut-off.
User avatar
EdLee
Honinbo
Posts: 8859
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 6:49 pm
GD Posts: 312
Location: Santa Barbara, CA
Has thanked: 349 times
Been thanked: 2070 times

Post by EdLee »

awef wrote:Now jermoie can harass me and build nice thickness.
<snip>
I'll be worried about his thickness in the upper left,
( For beginners. )
Very common trap around these levels: to be confused
by these nebulous terms: thickness, influence, or — magic.

“Now jermoie can harass me and build nice magic.”
First reaction: “What magic?! What are you talking about?? :scratch:
jeromie
Lives in sente
Posts: 902
Joined: Fri Jan 31, 2014 7:12 pm
Rank: AGA 3k
GD Posts: 0
Universal go server handle: jeromie
Location: Fort Collins, CO
Has thanked: 319 times
Been thanked: 287 times

Re: #240 awef vs jeromie

Post by jeromie »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$cm11 awef(B) v jeromie(W) 6.5 komi
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . , 4 . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . 3 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


This should help me develop a very strong wall, and I still have chance to get part of the corner territory, too.

I almost played the descent to C13 to try and kill the C15 stone, but as far as I can read it doesn't work. (I also tried the diagonal to C14, but it doesn't fare any better.)
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc19
$$ +------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . O 8 0 . . .
$$ | . . . 9 O 6 . . .
$$ | . . X 4 2 5 . . .
$$ | . . . . 3 . . . .
$$ | . . 1 O . 7 . . .
$$ | . . X . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . , . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]


There are quite a few possible variations, but all of them I tried end up with white trying to protect two weak groups and letting black escape into the center or connect with the C12 stone. I desperately wanted it to work (and the race is close enough I almost convinced myself it does), but every variation I tried ended up badly.
User avatar
EdLee
Honinbo
Posts: 8859
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 6:49 pm
GD Posts: 312
Location: Santa Barbara, CA
Has thanked: 349 times
Been thanked: 2070 times

Post by EdLee »

Hi jeromie,
jeromie wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ +------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . O . . . . .
$$ | . . . . O 6 . . .
$$ | . . X 4 2 5 . . .
$$ | . . . . 3 . . . .
$$ | . . 1 O . 7 . . .
$$ | . . X . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . , . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]
Can you name one problem with :w7: ?
jeromie
Lives in sente
Posts: 902
Joined: Fri Jan 31, 2014 7:12 pm
Rank: AGA 3k
GD Posts: 0
Universal go server handle: jeromie
Location: Fort Collins, CO
Has thanked: 319 times
Been thanked: 287 times

Re: #240 awef vs jeromie

Post by jeromie »

@EdLee
Black can peep at the tiger's mouth to get free moves that help build a strong outside wall. This wasn't the first line I tried, but it seemed to come closest to killing the black stones in the corner. Of course, if it didn't kill the corner the shapes were disastrous for white (and even if it did black could get a lot of outside profit).
awef
Dies in gote
Posts: 32
Joined: Fri Jul 25, 2014 7:38 am
Rank: 9 kyu
GD Posts: 0
KGS: awef 9kyu
Online playing schedule: kgs most saturdays and sundays 10:30am-1:30pm ET.

Re: #240 awef vs jeromie

Post by awef »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$cm11 awef(B) v jeromie(W) 6.5 komi
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . , 4 . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . 3 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , 2 . . |
$$ | . . . 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I think White let me off easy. It seems he basically wasted a move just now. I'll take the chance to strengthen my stones on the left. I didn't read out too many variations but this move looks like it'll do the trick good enough. Maybe I should look for better than good enough but at the same time I can't labor on every move. I thought about trying to slide in the lower left corner, but I think he could tenuki and invade at black 19 if I did that. I'm eyeing a pincer/double approach on that bottom left stone now -- it's looking lonely. I think my stones on the left side are over concentrated and working inefficiently and I think that it all started with black 15.
User avatar
EdLee
Honinbo
Posts: 8859
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 6:49 pm
GD Posts: 312
Location: Santa Barbara, CA
Has thanked: 349 times
Been thanked: 2070 times

Re:

Post by EdLee »

Hi jeromie,
jeromie wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ +------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . O . . . . .
$$ | . . . . O 6 . . .
$$ | . . X 4 2 5 . . .
$$ | . . . . 3 . . . .
$$ | . . 1 O . 7 . . .
$$ | . . X . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . , . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]
Black can peep at the tiger's mouth to get free moves that help build a strong outside wall.
Of course, if it didn't kill the corner the shapes were disastrous for white (and even if it did black could get a lot of outside profit).
- Yes, to the peeps; however...
- No, to the strong wall.
- Not necessarily, to the disastrous shape.
- No, to a lot of outside profit.

Can you name another problem with :w7: ? ( Still very local. )
User avatar
EdLee
Honinbo
Posts: 8859
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 6:49 pm
GD Posts: 312
Location: Santa Barbara, CA
Has thanked: 349 times
Been thanked: 2070 times

Post by EdLee »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$m11
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . , 4 . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . 3 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . a 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , 2 . . |
$$ | . . b 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
( For beginners. )
awef wrote:I think White let me off easy. It seems he basically wasted a move just now.
I think W's local shape is quite good, and :white:(a) now is a big move.
awef wrote:this move looks like it'll do the trick good enough.
Actually, :b19: in relation to :b15: and :b17: makes a "double large keima" —
this is a common shape at these levels, and it's not a very good combination.
Even if :b19: was simply one line lower, at (b), it's better.
awef wrote:Maybe I should look for better than good enough but at the same time I can't labor on every move.
Quite strange.
awef wrote:I think my stones on the left side are over concentrated and working inefficiently and I think that it all started with black 15.
- No, to over concentrated. It's the opposite: :b17: - :b19: - :b15: is a little thin.
- For working inefficiently, the shape is not good,
but probably not what awef has in mind.
- For :b15: , of course, locally the approach is no problem at all;
the question is the tenuki from :w14: .
User avatar
EdLee
Honinbo
Posts: 8859
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 6:49 pm
GD Posts: 312
Location: Santa Barbara, CA
Has thanked: 349 times
Been thanked: 2070 times

Post by EdLee »

Hi awef,
awef wrote:Maybe I should look for better than good enough but at the same time I can't labor on every move.
How do you decide which moves to "labor on" ?
What are your criterias for moves worth the labor and those which aren't ?

For a real-time game on the clock, time management is an issue.
But this game has a lot more time, so yours is an interesting mentality.
jeromie
Lives in sente
Posts: 902
Joined: Fri Jan 31, 2014 7:12 pm
Rank: AGA 3k
GD Posts: 0
Universal go server handle: jeromie
Location: Fort Collins, CO
Has thanked: 319 times
Been thanked: 287 times

Re: #240 awef vs jeromie

Post by jeromie »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$cm11 awef(B) v jeromie(W) 6.5 komi
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . , 4 . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . 3 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , 2 . . |
$$ | . . . 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . 0 . . . . . . . 1 . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


C13 is really, really big, but it leaves me over concentrated and I think white will fall behind if black plays again in the lower left. My lone 4-4 stone will struggle to do anything useful with another black stone in the area. I'm going to make a play to help my stones in the lower left live usefully. If black makes another move in the lower left, I'm going to go back to C13. If he plays C13, I'll probably play a move to take the lower left corner, though I'll also consider K17, R13, and S6.

Also considered: C13, the high extension to F4.
User avatar
EdLee
Honinbo
Posts: 8859
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 6:49 pm
GD Posts: 312
Location: Santa Barbara, CA
Has thanked: 349 times
Been thanked: 2070 times

Post by EdLee »

jeromie wrote:C13 is really, really big, but it leaves me over concentrated
Hmm, I think C13 is bigger.

Both players seem to have some misunderstanding of what over-concentrated means.
Post Reply