Life In 19x19

richardamullens wrote:

HermanHiddema wrote:A good example sport, IMO, is speed skating. They've been holding European Championships for well over a hundred years. Its an individual sport and it requires you to be a passport holder in a European country in order to participate.

I don't really buy the argument (if you are making it - certainly others seem to be) that just because this or that sport applies restrictions on who may participate, we should do likewise.

Personally I think it would be more honourable if the European Go community avoided these relics of nationalism.

The European community (EEC) started off small and is a model of cooperation in response to centuries of warfare. Perhaps Asian countries would not wish to join - but I see these divisions mostly as protectionism and we do not seem to be immune from that either.

Then don't use the term "European champion" and you'll have no problem. You can't pretend the words don't mean what they mean.

i didnt read every thread but i will express my opinion anyway.

if you are limiting stronger players from other country to let weak european player win some... it is like creating special oplympic for people with handycap because they can not win on regular olympic.

it will only help go community if you let stronger player enter the tornament.
i am sorry about my analogy if i offended anyone..i just want people to see what is wrong their idea.

kirkmc wrote:

richardamullens wrote:

HermanHiddema wrote:A good example sport, IMO, is speed skating. They've been holding European Championships for well over a hundred years. Its an individual sport and it requires you to be a passport holder in a European country in order to participate.

I don't really buy the argument (if you are making it - certainly others seem to be) that just because this or that sport applies restrictions on who may participate, we should do likewise.

Personally I think it would be more honourable if the European Go community avoided these relics of nationalism.

The European community (EEC) started off small and is a model of cooperation in response to centuries of warfare. Perhaps Asian countries would not wish to join - but I see these divisions mostly as protectionism and we do not seem to be immune from that either.

Then don't use the term "European champion" and you'll have no problem. You can't pretend the words don't mean what they mean.

We have now come full circle. The topic is "Who qualifies as European". You seem to have a fixed and (if I may say say so) illiberal view that uses as examples what pertains in other sports. The topic is clearly of interest and some members here are in favour of the proposal subject to a satisfactory value for threshold.

Is Usain Bolt allowed to become US champion in 100m sprint?

Magicwand wrote:If you are limiting stronger players from other countries in order to let weak european players win, it is like creating special oplympics for people with handicap because they can not win in the regular olympics.

It will only help the go community if you let stronger player enter the tornament.

That is not the point. Everyone can and should play in the Open tournament, which is the main event of the european Go congress.

It is a good idea, though, to try to determine and award the best european player(s), and this is where the definition of "european" comes into play. It is at first sight not much different from awarding the best female player, the best male player, the best player younger than 18 years, or the best player older than 60.

RobertJasiek wrote:

kirkmc wrote:There's really nothing that's hard to understand in this concept, and I'm pretty amazed that there are people here who don't understand.

It's not that we would not understand - we just have different opinions.

No, kirkmc made the claim that all other sports require that competitors have a passport in order to participate in their European Championship. That's not a matter of opinion, but something that is true or false.

Several people then cited counter-examples, but in all cases they were beside the point (ie: open national championships, team representation). From what I can see, doing some research on the internet, kirkmc's claim is true.

Whether the example of other sports is a good argument in favor of requiring a passport is another matter, but saying that kirkmc is wrong is simply not true.

tj86430 wrote:Is Usain Bolt allowed to become US champion in 100m sprint?

No, because he's not American. Should he change nationalities, then he would be.

richardamullens wrote:

HermanHiddema wrote:A good example sport, IMO, is speed skating. They've been holding European Championships for well over a hundred years. Its an individual sport and it requires you to be a passport holder in a European country in order to participate.

I don't really buy the argument (if you are making it - certainly others seem to be) that just because this or that sport applies restrictions on who may participate, we should do likewise.

I'm not making that argument, I'm simply defending kirkmc's assertion that other sports do it that way, because it is true.

Personally I think it would be more honourable if the European Go community avoided these relics of nationalism.

It would be very helpful to the discussion if you would stop throwing out such loaded nonsense. This has nothing to do with nationalism, nothing to do with Geert Wilders. Those are just guilt by association arguments, and they have no place in reasonable debate.

The European community (EEC) started off small and is a model of cooperation in response to centuries of warfare. Perhaps Asian countries would not wish to join - but I see these divisions mostly as protectionism and we do not seem to be immune from that either.

The EGF is even more open than the EEC, and has already accepted members that would not, traditionally, be considered European, such as Isreal, Armenia and Cyprus. Players from such countries are currently eligible to be European Champion, even though in most sports they would not be considered "Europeans" at all.

I think it is correct that the EGF has actually come up with a definition of a 'European' player. Without such a definition you can imagine unfair or inconsistent decisions taking place. I don't really have a problem with the rule they chose - passport holding member of an EGF country. It's consistent with WAGC or KPMC.

Of course there is a case for making it more inclusive - passport holding member of any European or EGF Country. (The EGF is not completely European.) There is a question of how you administer a 5 year or 2 year residency rule. It doesn't strike me as something that is unachievable, but it does require majority agreement from EGF members. As has been pointed out here, many nations already take this approach.

In relation to this, the EGF or Europe must maintain the value of Open events. The European Open Champion should not become a meaningless title. Do not forget that the EGF's constitution requires it to hold a European Championship.

HermanHiddema wrote:

richardamullens wrote:

HermanHiddema wrote:A good example sport, IMO, is speed skating. They've been holding European Championships for well over a hundred years. Its an individual sport and it requires you to be a passport holder in a European country in order to participate.

I don't really buy the argument (if you are making it - certainly others seem to be) that just because this or that sport applies restrictions on who may participate, we should do likewise.

I'm not making that argument, I'm simply defending kirkmc's assertion that other sports do it that way, because it is true.

Personally I think it would be more honourable if the European Go community avoided these relics of nationalism.

It would be very helpful to the discussion if you would stop throwing out such loaded nonsense. This has nothing to do with nationalism, nothing to do with Geert Wilders. Those are just guilt by association arguments, and they have no place in reasonable debate.

It is my opinion and I feel entitled to state it. Your statement that it is "loaded nonsense" is just impolite - and it too has no place in reasonable debate.

Dunno, I'd say the "relics of nationalism" bit is nonsense...

richardamullens wrote:It is my opinion and I feel entitled to state it.

You're free to state whatever you want. That still doesn't make it helpful to the discussion.

Your statement that it is "loaded nonsense" is just impolite

Yes, my apologies, I should have known better.

- and it too has no place in reasonable debate.

Agree. Lets have a reasonable debate, free from impoliteness and from arguments of a dubious nature, shall we?

Agree. Lets have a reasonable debate, free from impoliteness and from arguments of a dubious nature, shall we?

ok we will after all be meeting in Lunteren.

richardamullens wrote:

Agree. Lets have a reasonable debate, free from impoliteness and from arguments of a dubious nature, shall we?

ok we will after all be meeting in Lunteren.

Ah, you're going to Zomergo? Good! We'll definitely meet there, then

It is fair to say that you should be European to win the European Championship.
The question was who are Europeans?

As said, the definition is someone who is living in or are originating from Europe.
So this would include anyone living in an European country.
It would maybe include students but probably not tourists.

What about someone who has been living in Europe for many years, is married to a native European,
is working here, is playing go, is participating in European tournaments, but choose not to get
a European passport?

For this reason I don't like the definition that you must have an European passport.
(btw. How often did you have to show your passport at EGC?)

I would prefer a rule of something like "Is living in an European country now and since X years".
Here X should not be more than 5. I think 3 years should be enough.
It is possible to become European citizen and get European passport after living in Europe for 3 years.

Now, what about those Europeans who moved to another area of the earth and didn't keep their
European citizenship (and European passport)? They are not living in Europe, but are originating from Europe.