Reading books to improve?

Talk about improving your game, resources you like, games you played, etc.
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Re: Reading books to improve?

Post by Darsey »

fstop wrote:Please tell me, how many go books do you read, and how does it relate to your go skill? Is it possible to improve by reading a lot even if you don't play that much?

I know that playing is the best way to improve, but I want your opinion and personal experience on the mater of books.

Thanks :)


I read "Improve your intuitione" vol 2 and "All About Thickness: Understanding Moyo and Influence". This 2 books make me more strong. I think that they are recommended (Improve your intuitione is from Slate&Shell and it isn't in sale now in his web).
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Re: Reading books to improve?

Post by RobertJasiek »

Krama wrote:Do you have any examples of this hidden knowledge?


Answer:
viewtopic.php?p=182972#p182972
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Re: Reading books to improve?

Post by Bantari »

Robert, you speak a lot of the "hidden" knowledge. But this is wrong.
The knowledge is not "hidden" at all. It is out there for you to see, each time you watch a pro game for example. As you say, you see it in the play of the stronger players - it is all there. What you are after is not really "uncovering" the knowledge, but formulating it in a way you find "easier" to digest and internalize. This is why you want to categorize it all into theories and theorems... not really to uncover that which is not hidden, but to have it presented in a form which you find more palatable.

I agree with you that having it all "pre-chewed" is easier than to have to formulate it yourself, but maybe - just maybe - this process of formulation and internalization is an important part of getting stronger. Like in every discipline, you can rely on thoughts and reaonings of others only that much - eventually you have to start thinking for yourself. This is why books and theories, while helpful, will never by themselves be sufficient. All they can do is make the path slightly easier... but possibly at the cost of the path leading to the wrong place.

As said before, I really do not know how it really is, have never been really strong.
My suspicion is based on what I see in other disciplines, even the ones where there is a lot books and theory (chess or math, just to name a few.) Books and existing theories can give you a leg up, sure, but to be truly great you have to think for yourself. Otherwise, you might, at best, be a good teacher.

I suspect that you personally feel lost and confused when you don't see it all categorized and organized into bite-size chunks, one building up on the other... and there is nothing wrong woth that. I just wonder if this is the best way to get strong. We know it is not the only way.
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Re: Reading books to improve?

Post by Bantari »

RobertJasiek wrote:Apart from the many reasons I have explained many times elsewhere, because they get the knowledge I do not get because they have sufficient contact to people from whom they can get such knowledge even if it is passed only accidentally.

I wonder if this is really the truth, regardless of your belief in it.

Most stronger players I met and talked to did not get any special treatments, no access to "hidden knowledge", and no personal lessons.
True, they have had exposure to strong players, have had a chance to watch them play, hear them discuss... And maybe play against them occasionally and get a few pointers or even learned themselves. And so they grew and got strong as well. Without books.

Right now, with the internet opening the world, you and me - we have pretty much the same chances, opportunities, and access. And certainly the generations coming after us have this advantage. And this is what made a huge difference - not really the amount or the quality of available books. Well... books helped too... a little.

I guess those who become truly strong this way grabbed the ball handed to them and run with it.
While you (and me) hold the ball and stand there waiting for somebody to draw us a neat little diagram.

PS>
I am not arguing here against books or theories. They are certainly helpful in some ways. And what you do is important on some level.

But it is certainly possible to get strong without looking at things as you do. People do it around you all the time, every day, even in Europe - and they have the same sources and opportunities as you do. So why don't you, why are you "stuck"? I know, because there is no written theory... and yet others did not need it to progress in this form, which is observable and verifiable truth - there is no theory available and/or written (thus you do what you do) and they do get strong, q.e.d.

Makes you think?
Certainly makes me think.
Or would you rather think of something else?
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Re: Reading books to improve?

Post by RobertJasiek »

Bantari, not the low level information (the sequences of the pro / stronger amateur games) is "hidden" but certain intermediate to high level knowledge of go theory about the low level information is "hidden". And this is exactly the point.

Bantari wrote:it is certainly possible to get strong without looking at things as you do.


Regardless of how one looks at go theory, stronger players have similar knowledge (when compared among each other), which is also similar to what I describe explicitly (AFA I have had time to describe it so far). Not everybody needs to have the knowledge explicitly, but everybody needs to have similar knowledge. This is so because everybody is confronted with the same kinds of positions.

I know, because there is no written theory... and yet others did not need it to progress in this form, which is observable and verifiable truth


Of most stronger players I know, most were studying go in Asia (e.g., as insei). Apparently, such study can replace written theory. Oral theory does it as well:)

So why don't you, why are you "stuck"?


Answer: viewtopic.php?p=183002#p183002
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Re: Reading books to improve?

Post by Bantari »

RobertJasiek wrote:Regardless of how one looks at go theory, stronger players have similar knowledge

Thus, it is not hidden. Just "not yet attained" by you.

I never claimed that Go knowledge does not exist. Only - that it is not "hidden", and possibly not presented the way *you* *personally* would like. And what's more, the presentation you so crave might not really be that important or crucial to get stronger. In general, that is... it is obviously important to *you* *personally*.

In any case, what we are discussing here, in my opinion, is the issue of presentation (and maybe organization) of the knowledge, not really its existance or disclosure.
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Re: Reading books to improve?

Post by Krama »

I still think one can't improve just by reading books.

Youth is very important but playing and reviewing your own games is very important.

Playing > tsumego > reading theory

Also learning "tricks" is very important. Tricks not as in trick plays that result in good when your opponent gets tricked but bad for you if opponents knows how to answer, but tricks as in good key moves, shape points, good timing of those etc.
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Re: Reading books to improve?

Post by Shako »

I'd be very interested to hear your thoughts on the following quote which come from a really interesting (and modern!) chess book.

Jonathon Rowson in Chess for Zebras suggests that most learners try to improve by increasing their 'knowledge' while they should be trying to improve their playing 'skill'..(the 'what' instead of the the 'how')

"It really doesn't matter what you study (referring to ideas of studying tactics, strategy, openings, endings etc etc), the important thing is to use this as a training ground for thinking rather than trying to assimilate a mind-numbing amount of information. In these days of a zillion chess products, this message seems to be quite lost, and indeed most people seem to want books to tell them what to do. The reality is that you've got to move the pieces around the board and play with the position. Who does that? Amateurs don't, Grandmasters do..."

In light of that, I personally find it interesting that beginners at Go are told "Go play a lot first!" and "Go do exercises" BEFORE they get bogged down in ideas.

These idea things DO tend to be slippery chaps that don't always liked to be put on the spot in a given, precise, concrete instance... ;-)
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Re: Reading books to improve?

Post by Bill Spight »

Shako wrote:I'd be very interested to hear your thoughts on the following quote which come from a really interesting (and modern!) chess book.

Jonathon Rowson in Chess for Zebras suggests that most learners try to improve by increasing their 'knowledge' while they should be trying to improve their playing 'skill'..(the 'what' instead of the the 'how')

"It really doesn't matter what you study (referring to ideas of studying tactics, strategy, openings, endings etc etc), the important thing is to use this as a training ground for thinking rather than trying to assimilate a mind-numbing amount of information. In these days of a zillion chess products, this message seems to be quite lost, and indeed most people seem to want books to tell them what to do. The reality is that you've got to move the pieces around the board and play with the position. Who does that? Amateurs don't, Grandmasters do..."


That is a lot like my approach to go when I was learning. Even though I had a good memory, I wanted to understand something well enough to be able to work it out on my own and not have to rely upon memory. And now I encourage people to think and to play around with positions by playing stones on the board.

But now I question that approach, and I do not think that it is best for everybody. Go has always struck me as a very literate, conceptual game. There are thousands of concepts to commit to memory. I am not talking about mind-numbing information, but about building blocks for thought. I expect that there is a body of basic go knowledge that adult beginners, in particular, would be well advised to learn.

Let me give an example. John Fairbairn recently posted a position with a Door Group. Now, how to handle the Door Group is part of that basic knowledge that I mean. As it turns out, I never learned about the Door Group. Oh, at this point it is not difficult for me to read out. The key variation is only 11 moves deep in a small area. But could I have read it out in a game as a 5 kyu? I doubt it. The reason is that that variation involves a very basic concept that I never learned.

Besides, in go and chess the distinction between skill and knowledge is not sharp. For instance:



Skill or knowledge?

In light of that, I personally find it interesting that beginners at Go are told "Go play a lot first!" and "Go do exercises" BEFORE they get bogged down in ideas.


OC, I encourage beginners to play. But if they want to improve quickly, I advise them to play against stronger opponents. And to review their games. (During my first year of play my weakest opponent was a 5 kyu. I have no regrets about that. :) And we went over almost every game.)

As for doing exercises, I have my doubts for adult beginners. They have plenty of challenges in their games, especially if they have good opponents. I know that doing tsumego is standard advice these days. But if you want people to think, they have to have something to think about. When people talk about doing dozens of easy problems in a single day, I wonder if they are challenging themselves enough. When I was in training, I did 4 problems a day, taking one hour to do them. (OC, that was at the dan level, but still. . . .)

As for getting "bogged down in ideas", well, stumbling blocks or stepping stones? :)
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Re: Reading books to improve?

Post by tentano »

I would class that example as "knowledge". I knew instantly where to play, and that doesn't strike me as particularly skilful. I've simply encountered that kind of situation so often that it is recognized from memory.
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Re: Reading books to improve?

Post by Boidhre »

Bill Spight wrote:Skill or knowledge?


Both, either, or. I see it because I know that shape well. My boy who's a raw beginner sees it because there's 2 liberties and he's gotten sensitive to that and will start reading all the variations to check if there's something. There is an amount of skill in being able to find such moves if you do not recognise the shape from memory. It's just hard to recognise as such if you know the pattern. But baby steps first and all that.
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Re: Reading books to improve?

Post by RobertJasiek »

Knowledge describes both the what and the how. What is skill? Application of knowledge? There can be knowledge describing the application of knowledge. Skill includes the what, the how, the application of knowledge and decision-making beyond one's known application of knowledge. Knowledge can guide also the latter - to some extent. So we are still within what books can / should teach. Skill should go beyond, where currently the books end. However, books can offer so much that OC they are one of the central means to improve. The question should not be whether to read books, or only how few books to read, but what one does besides reading books.
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Re: Reading books to improve?

Post by Shako »

RobertJasiek wrote:Knowledge describes both the what and the how. What is skill? Application of knowledge? There can be knowledge describing the application of knowledge. Skill includes the what, the how, the application of knowledge and decision-making beyond one's known application of knowledge. Knowledge can guide also the latter - to some extent. So we are still within what books can / should teach. Skill should go beyond, where currently the books end. However, books can offer so much that OC they are one of the central means to improve. The question should not be whether to read books, or only how few books to read, but what one does besides reading books.


Perhaps Go is fundamentally different from chess in the way people improve... Many people who consume chess books seem to make very little real progress in terms of playing strength...until/unless they start working at their game more (in which case the texts in books are perhaps less important than the actual moves and their variations).

I'm not at all convinced that 'DESCRIBING the application of knowledge' or 'DESCRIBING the how' leads necessarily to skill (which I take as the ability to perform at a high level).

Nigel Davies suggests that chess players tend to try to learn by 'reading and nodding' (that certainly resonates with my personal experience :oops: ), which tends to reduce the amount of time that people spend scratching their heads over a board.

Does Go see the same difference between how quickly and easily young players improve compared to older learners? (I imagine so).

Another quote from the same book offers an explanation for this..." Paradoxically, the problem seems to be while junior players tend to put what they learn into practice without any real conscious intent, and thereby improve steadily, adult players strain in an effort to understand what they are learning, and this leads to all sorts of problems because rather than gaining in tactile skill, this skill is adulterated by our attempts to formalize it into knowledge".

What elements make up skill apart from knowledge...? I think of things like concentration, hard work and enthusiasm, drive, imagination, the ability to play without your ego getting in your way, tenacity, self-control, humbleness and being open to others' ideas and input, courage (yes, don't laugh! ;) ) and massive amounts of practice of course....I'm sure we could come up with many others.

Yes, "what one does aside from reading books"....and perhaps how to use them...!?
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Re: Reading books to improve?

Post by Boidhre »

I came across a line about chess once, "the strength of the average club player is inversely proportional to the size of their chess library." Not a criticism of chess books but more how we misuse them (either wrong books or not studying them properly and just skimming). :P
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Re: Reading books to improve?

Post by Shako »

Bill Spight wrote:
That is a lot like my approach to go when I was learning. Even though I had a good memory, I wanted to understand something well enough to be able to work it out on my own and not have to rely upon memory. And now I encourage people to think and to play around with positions by playing stones on the board.

But now I question that approach, and I do not think that it is best for everybody. Go has always struck me as a very literate, conceptual game. There are thousands of concepts to commit to memory. I am not talking about mind-numbing information, but about building blocks for thought. I expect that there is a body of basic go knowledge that adult beginners, in particular, would be well advised to learn.

Let me give an example. John Fairbairn recently posted a position with a Door Group. Now, how to handle the Door Group is part of that basic knowledge that I mean. As it turns out, I never learned about the Door Group. Oh, at this point it is not difficult for me to read out. The key variation is only 11 moves deep in a small area. But could I have read it out in a game as a 5 kyu? I doubt it. The reason is that that variation involves a very basic concept that I never learned.

Besides, in go and chess the distinction between skill and knowledge is not sharp.

[

OC, I encourage beginners to play. But if they want to improve quickly, I advise them to play against stronger opponents. And to review their games. (During my first year of play my weakest opponent was a 5 kyu. I have no regrets about that. :) And we went over almost every game.)

As for doing exercises, I have my doubts for adult beginners. They have plenty of challenges in their games, especially if they have good opponents. I know that doing tsumego is standard advice these days. But if you want people to think, they have to have something to think about. When people talk about doing dozens of easy problems in a single day, I wonder if they are challenging themselves enough. When I was in training, I did 4 problems a day, taking one hour to do them. (OC, that was at the dan level, but still. . . .)

As for getting "bogged down in ideas", well, stumbling blocks or stepping stones? :)


That's very interesting. The idea that knowledge has to work its way down into skill would apply to most of what you've said above. I think the idea of working hard (whether at the board, while learning or while playing) seems primordial.

Learning constantly with a stronger player who regularly took the time to analyse the game is a fantastic setup (for you! :mrgreen: ).
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