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Re: Favourite Go Proverbs?
Posted: Mon May 18, 2015 5:21 pm
by Joelnelsonb
I've got one from studying music theory but I feel like it relates to Go as well:
"It's better for one bee to make an ounce of honey than for one thousand bees to make a gallon."
In other words, always try to do more with less (less is good). Always avoid doing less with more.
Re: Favourite Go Proverbs?
Posted: Mon May 18, 2015 6:22 pm
by moyoaji
Bill Spight wrote:But isn't the second commandment, "Thy opponent's move is thy move"?
These words are also wise, but the timing is everything. This is why it is "Urgent before big." Let me tell you a parable:
Once, there was a strong young go player who went to speak with a pro. "Teacher," he asked. "What must I do to win a game of go?"
The professional said, "You know the fundamentals: nets and ladders, cutting and connecting, keeping ahead of your opponent, and making shape."
"All of these I have done for many games," said the young go player.
The pro nodded. "But there is still one thing you lack. Go, play a game and, when your opponent slides under your 4-4 stone into the corner, instead of playing the 3-3, take sente and tenuki. When the game ends, then come and learn from me."
And the young go player left very saddened because he knew the 3-3 was joseki and double sente.
Re: Favourite Go Proverbs?
Posted: Mon May 18, 2015 10:19 pm
by Bill Spight
Another version:
The teacher told the young player, "Resist not your opponent's attack. Sacrifice your stones for thickness, and you will have your reward in the center."
Re: Favourite Go Proverbs?
Posted: Tue May 19, 2015 12:56 am
by Joelnelsonb
Bill Spight wrote:Another version:
The teacher told the young player, "Resist not your opponent's attack. Sacrifice your stones for thickness, and you will have your reward in the center."
Let's roll with it:
For everything there is a season:
A time to lay down stones and a time to pick up stones;
A time to attack and a time to defend;
A time to kill and a time to be killed;
A time to atari and a time to extend;
A time for influence and a time for territory;
A time for aggression and a time for patience;
A time for Go and a time for life.
Re: Favourite Go Proverbs?
Posted: Tue May 19, 2015 2:38 am
by Mef
"Proverbs do not apply to white"
Re: Favourite Go Proverbs?
Posted: Thu May 21, 2015 1:15 am
by joellercoaster
moyoaji wrote:"Keep your stones connected, and your opponent's stones disconnected." This is the first and greatest commandment.
I am only just starting to realise how big a deal this is.
I need it written on my laptop touchpad.
Re: Favourite Go Proverbs?
Posted: Thu May 21, 2015 3:52 am
by Uberdude
joellercoaster wrote:moyoaji wrote:"Keep your stones connected, and your opponent's stones disconnected." This is the first and greatest commandment.
I am only just starting to realise how big a deal this is.
drmwc vs Joaz's malkovich game is a good example of the importance of connection.
Re: Favourite Go Proverbs?
Posted: Thu May 21, 2015 6:37 am
by Pippen
I am still looking for a cool proverb for the following: That one should try to continue with moves from an already existing pack of own stones than to abandon too quickly to play some single "big" moves elsewhere (with no connection to that pack of stones) that always look larger than they are. Because single moves (side extensions, kakari, hoshis) are usually very weak, while moves that continue to build up from a bunch of stones are more powerful since the more stones the more powerful they are. So maybe something like: Don't walk away from family (of stones)! I think it is an important concept to prevent Ubertenuki, i.e. an overly excessive use of tenuki to get all the big spots (e.g. hoshi points or similiar big looking points) that are smaller than they look while moves continuing or using a family of stones often are bigger than they might look.
Re: Favourite Go Proverbs?
Posted: Thu May 21, 2015 6:46 am
by Joelnelsonb
Pippen wrote:I am still looking for a cool proverb for the following: That one should try to continue with moves from an already existing pack of own stones than to abandon too quickly to play some single "big" moves elsewhere (with no connection to that pack of stones) that always look larger than they are. Because single moves (side extensions, kakari, hoshis) are usually very weak, while moves that continue to build up from a bunch of stones are more powerful since the more stones the more powerful they are. So maybe something like: Don't walk away from family (of stones)! I think it is an important concept to prevent Ubertenuki, i.e. an overly excessive use of tenuki to get all the big spots (e.g. hoshi points or similiar big looking points) that are smaller than they look while moves continuing or using a family of stones often are bigger than they might look.
I'm not sure if I really understand what you're tryin to say but, to me at least, it sounds like you're suggesting the exact opposite of everything I've been taught from reading books. Everyone talks about how kyu players always get caught up in fights and continue to play local to the most developed part of the board and miss the actual "big" moves.
Re: Favourite Go Proverbs?
Posted: Thu May 21, 2015 6:47 am
by skydyr
Pippen wrote:I am still looking for a cool proverb for the following: That one should try to continue with moves from an already existing pack of own stones than to abandon too quickly to play some single "big" moves elsewhere (with no connection to that pack of stones) that always look larger than they are. Because single moves (side extensions, kakari, hoshis) are usually very weak, while moves that continue to build up from a bunch of stones are more powerful since the more stones the more powerful they are. So maybe something like: Don't walk away from family (of stones)! I think it is an important concept to prevent Ubertenuki, i.e. an overly excessive use of tenuki to get all the big spots (e.g. hoshi points or similiar big looking points) that are smaller than they look while moves continuing or using a family of stones often are bigger than they might look.
Perhaps "Urgent before big?"
Also, "Five will live but the sixth will die."
Re: Favourite Go Proverbs?
Posted: Thu May 21, 2015 6:57 am
by Joelnelsonb
skydyr wrote:Perhaps "Urgent before big?"
Also, "Five will live but the sixth will die."
Or how about "Don't leave your house to go pitch a tent."
Re: Favourite Go Proverbs?
Posted: Thu May 21, 2015 8:18 am
by Bill Spight
Pippen wrote:I am still looking for a cool proverb for the following: That one should try to continue with moves from an already existing pack of own stones than to abandon too quickly to play some single "big" moves elsewhere (with no connection to that pack of stones) that always look larger than they are. Because single moves (side extensions, kakari, hoshis) are usually very weak, while moves that continue to build up from a bunch of stones are more powerful since the more stones the more powerful they are. So maybe something like: Don't walk away from family (of stones)! I think it is an important concept to prevent Ubertenuki, i.e. an overly excessive use of tenuki to get all the big spots (e.g. hoshi points or similiar big looking points) that are smaller than they look while moves continuing or using a family of stones often are bigger than they might look.
Sorry, that sounds like the kyu disease of incremental extension of territory. The right proverb is this one:
Do not play close to strong stones.
Re: Favourite Go Proverbs?
Posted: Thu May 21, 2015 8:26 am
by Bill Spight
skydyr wrote:Pippen wrote:I am still looking for a cool proverb for the following: That one should try to continue with moves from an already existing pack of own stones than to abandon too quickly to play some single "big" moves elsewhere (with no connection to that pack of stones) that always look larger than they are. Because single moves (side extensions, kakari, hoshis) are usually very weak, while moves that continue to build up from a bunch of stones are more powerful since the more stones the more powerful they are. So maybe something like: Don't walk away from family (of stones)! I think it is an important concept to prevent Ubertenuki, i.e. an overly excessive use of tenuki to get all the big spots (e.g. hoshi points or similiar big looking points) that are smaller than they look while moves continuing or using a family of stones often are bigger than they might look.
Perhaps "Urgent before big?"
No, he specifically states that the existing pack of stones is strong to start with. What he is proposing, I think, is "Non-urgent before big."
Re: Favourite Go Proverbs?
Posted: Thu May 21, 2015 8:29 am
by Bill Spight
Joelnelsonb wrote:skydyr wrote:Perhaps "Urgent before big?"
Also, "Five will live but the sixth will die."
Or how about "Don't leave your house to go pitch a tent."
I love to go a-wandering,
Along the mountain track,
And as I go, I love to sing,
My knapsack on my back.
Re: Favourite Go Proverbs?
Posted: Thu May 21, 2015 9:31 am
by Pippen
Bill Spight wrote:No, he specifically states that the existing pack of stones is strong to start with. What he is proposing, I think, is "Non-urgent before big."
I propose: Moves that take advantage of multiple stones are bigger than moves without any support. So when you have to decide and in doubt you should decide to play moves around "your family". Let me give an example:
$$B
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . b Q . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Q . Q . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . Q . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . X . . Q . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+
- Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . b Q . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Q . Q . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . Q . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . X . . Q . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
White to play. 'a' looks monstrous, but 'b' is bigger because it uses the marked stones ("family") and therefore has more power than a single move at 'a'. I hope my point comes thru. I recently got aware that where I did tenuki to play moves like 'a', professionals stayed in the local battle using every bit of the stones they already had on the board instead of jumping away. But it's hard to grasp the concept and put it into words.