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22. Araban (5d) vs. zinger (1d)

https://lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?t=154

Page 4 of 7

Re: Araban vs. zinger : Malkovich #22

Posted: Wed May 05, 2010 9:02 pm
by Kirby
Bill Spight wrote:
Kirby wrote:
Is F3 better than C6 as an approach move for white? I would have probably played C6, because F3 seems too close to white's influence here.

Perhaps there's something I can learn from this. Could someone elaborate?


I think that C-06 is generally better. It isn't so much that F-03 is too close to White's thickness. After all, it is a 4 space extension. But, assuming that Black replies with F-03 or so, his further prospects on the bottom side are limited.


Thanks, Bill. I can see that. Maybe I call stuff influence too much instead of gathering rational explanations for moves.

Re: Araban vs. zinger : Malkovich #22

Posted: Thu May 06, 2010 9:51 am
by Solomon
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . W . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . O O X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Re: Araban vs. zinger : Malkovich #22

Posted: Thu May 06, 2010 10:29 am
by zinger
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . O O X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


The right side looks unimportant, so if white wants to play the standard joseki that ends poking his head out at R14, I will be happy.

Re: Araban vs. zinger : Malkovich #22

Posted: Thu May 06, 2010 10:53 am
by Magicwand
Bill Spight wrote:
Kirby wrote:
Is F3 better than C6 as an approach move for white? I would have probably played C6, because F3 seems too close to white's influence here.

Perhaps there's something I can learn from this. Could someone elaborate?


I think that C-06 is generally better. It isn't so much that F-03 is too close to White's thickness. After all, it is a 4 space extension. But, assuming that Black replies with F-03 or so, his further prospects on the bottom side are limited.


i might play F4 in this situation. i think that is something to think about.
i like it better than c6.

Re: Araban vs. zinger : Malkovich #22

Posted: Thu May 06, 2010 11:44 am
by Solomon
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . W . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . O O X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Re: Araban vs. zinger : Malkovich #22

Posted: Thu May 06, 2010 1:01 pm
by zinger
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c No good
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . 1 . . X . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . O . a . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

Whatever happens, I don't want to let white enclose me with 2. So it seems my options are to play 2 myself, or maybe a, or cut. Can I cut?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c This doesn't look too bad.
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X 3 O . 8 . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . 2 1 4 X . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . O 5 6 0 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 9 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c This doesn't look too bad cont.
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X X O 2 O . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . O X O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . O X O O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . X X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

The white corner looks big, but there may be a little aji there. Also black gets some strength to balance white's in the bottom right, so the 5-5 stone will be hard to use.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Still OK
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X 3 O 8 6 9 . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . 2 1 4 X . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . O 5 7 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Just fine
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X 3 O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . 2 1 4 X . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . O 5 7 8 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 9 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Hmmm
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X X O 5 6 8 . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . O X O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . O 1 2 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 4 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

What happens if I don't cut?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c I don't like this
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . 2 . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . O . 1 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

Putting white on the run doesn't help me, since white has thickness, plus this helps him get work from the 5-5 stone.

So I guess cut it is.


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X 3 O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . 2 1 . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . O O X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Re: Araban vs. zinger : Malkovich #22

Posted: Sat May 08, 2010 7:50 am
by Kirby
Magicwand wrote:
Bill Spight wrote:
Kirby wrote:
Is F3 better than C6 as an approach move for white? I would have probably played C6, because F3 seems too close to white's influence here.

Perhaps there's something I can learn from this. Could someone elaborate?


I think that C-06 is generally better. It isn't so much that F-03 is too close to White's thickness. After all, it is a 4 space extension. But, assuming that Black replies with F-03 or so, his further prospects on the bottom side are limited.


i might play F4 in this situation. i think that is something to think about.
i like it better than c6.


Just your feeling, or do you have a reason?

Re: Araban vs. zinger : Malkovich #22

Posted: Sat May 08, 2010 9:27 am
by Solomon
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . O X W X . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . O O X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Re: Araban vs. zinger : Malkovich #22

Posted: Sat May 08, 2010 9:53 am
by zinger
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . O X O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . O 1 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . O O X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I wonder what he has in mind. Surely he was prepared for the cut when he played the knight move.

Re: Araban vs. zinger : Malkovich #22

Posted: Sun May 09, 2010 3:08 am
by SpongeBob
For zinger:

I guess you decided agaist the double atari at P17 because you are going for influence to counter white's influence, right?

Re: Araban vs. zinger : Malkovich #22

Posted: Sun May 09, 2010 7:54 am
by zinger
For Spongebob:

SpongeBob wrote:For zinger:

I guess you decided agaist the double atari at P17 because you are going for influence to counter white's influence, right?


Yes. Also allowing white a ponnuki there feels very bad.

Re: Araban vs. zinger : Malkovich #22

Posted: Mon May 10, 2010 1:04 am
by Solomon
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . O X O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . O X W . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . O O X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Trigger:
O14 -> Q17


Re: Araban vs. zinger : Malkovich #22

Posted: Mon May 10, 2010 6:07 am
by zinger
Trigger accepted, and additional offered:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . 2 . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . O X O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . O X O 4 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 3 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . O O X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


He's actually following one of my read-out lines. Go figure.

One thing I think really distinguishes stronger players, is that their evaluation of a position is superior. Here what I expected is playing out - but maybe Solomon's judgement on the the result is superior. We'll see.

Re: Araban vs. zinger : Malkovich #22

Posted: Mon May 10, 2010 6:38 am
by Magicwand
if sol didnt play 5-5 point we would be in better shape.
i dont know why anyone is willing to play 5-5 point.
it is in joseki book but it doent belong there in my opinion.
there is a reason why professinals dont play such move.

Re: Araban vs. zinger : Malkovich #22

Posted: Tue May 11, 2010 10:44 am
by Solomon
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X X O W O . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . O X O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . O X O O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . O O X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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