Life In 19x19

jlt wrote:Moreover, there is no reason why go game should attract essentially scientific minds. In Asia, children are exposed to go much earlier than in western countries, before showing any inclination towards science or literature.

But in asia, go is part of the culture, close to what chess is in the west (and indeed, children here are exposed to chess early). In the west, it's an exotic game.

I dont mind the social aspect of Go. So no problem if the players count is declining. I just want to play. But I am a weird person


Just chill and enjoy Go.

Uberdude wrote: That's a shame. Am I right in thinking this is largely because you have fallen out of love with go (in large part due to arrival of strong go bots) and not because you think, were you mentally in the same place as a few years ago, the congress will be worse now than before? Or does the fact Andy Liu and Ryan Li will play an AI pair go game, or during a lecture they might talk about AI inspired moves like early 3-3 invasions, or your opponents play such moves actively turn you off?

Well, I regret my decision now. I can be too stubborn sometimes- I mean, seriously...

I downloaded the US Go Congress app, and read the profiles of several of the attendees who had filled them out. I was filled with nostalgia, regret, and sadness that I didn't attend this year.

What changed from a couple of days ago? Is my perspective on computer go any different? No, that's not it. I thought about it more, and I think I have the answer.

For awhile now, I was missing the big picture. I was turned off by the fact that I could study for hours a day for several years, and even if I became 9d, some kid on his laptop could refute my moves.

Maybe succinctly, the inequality could be expressed as:

my_go_ability < computer --> Why is the effort worth it?

But in light of the Go Congress, I realized that I'm missing a variable here. It's not my_go_ability in isolation. Rather, what's relevant here is:

my_go + my_community

Where my_community is the group of friends I've acquired over the years online and in person who share a rare but common interest in go. And perhaps my_community is one of the reasons I was interested in my_go_ability in the first place.

Until computers are able to simulate my_community, I can confidently say that:

my_go + my_community > computer; maybe not in terms of go strength, but definitely in terms of value.

So I guess what I'm trying to say is:
1. I've been stubborn for awhile
2. It was a big mistake not to go to the Go Congress this year. I already deeply regret it
3. Go might not be worth playing if I'm the only one that plays. But with my community both on L19 and at the US Go Congress, go is a medium through which we can derive happiness.

Maybe it's kind of like how it's fun to drink with friends, but a bit lonely when you're by yourself. Not sure if that analogy works

Anyway, I miss my friends at the Go Congress, and to anyone who is attending, please enjoy yourselves to the fullest extent possible!

If you could play go perfectly, what would be the point of playing? Of course, most of us experience emotions such as pleasure, enjoyment, disgust for making a mistake, frustration with your opponent for playing badly so the game isn't fun, etc. And AI players experience none of this. I guess my point is that we play go for human reasons, not to play perfectly. We may want to improve our understanding of the game, to have more challenging partners, etc. I am reminded of a go friend, a SDK player, who didn't want to become a strong dan level player because he could not then enjoy even games with his friends. We are all going to peak in ability to play, and then, perhaps, to decline. That's just how humans are. Recognition of human pleasure and sharing the game is important. Going to and playing at a club or salon can be rich in human interaction and pleasure. Playing on line can offer some of these pleasures and can even lead to real friendship, but it is different from in-person playing at a club or a congress. My fear is that this sort of person-to-person sharing is dying in the internet age.

I was turned off by the fact that I could study for hours a day for several years, and even if I became 9d, some kid on his laptop could refute my moves.

It seems like this sentence is a little bit arrogant.

I was turned on by the fact that I studied go for years and now finally the 9 Dans who told me 20 years ago an early 3-3 invasion is stupid, have to reconsider their advice to beginners of this fine game.

Gomoto wrote:

I was turned off by the fact that I could study for hours a day for several years, and even if I became 9d, some kid on his laptop could refute my moves.

It seems like this sentence is a little bit arrogant.

I think you are misreading it if you think that Kirby is claiming that he could actually become 9d.

Meanwhile, I am having a great time at the Congress so far, despite the continual rain and losing my first round game by 0.5 points after making multiple unnecessary defensive moves because I thought I was ahead by plenty (I tried to count, I swear). Sorry that I don't get to meet you this year, Kirby - maybe next time!

Gomoto wrote:

I was turned off by the fact that I could study for hours a day for several years, and even if I became 9d, some kid on his laptop could refute my moves.

It seems like this sentence is a little bit arrogant.

Not sure why.

dfan wrote:Sorry that I don't get to meet you this year, Kirby - maybe next time!

I'll be there fore sure

It sounds a little bit arrogant as in someone with a few years of go study is superior to a kid with a laptop.

But perhaps someone with a few years in go study is indeed superior?

Someone that put in effort to get strong deserves it. They worked hard for it. Someone that boots up LeelaZero and asks for an answer doesn't need to put in any effort - it's like they got the answer from a friend.

Note, I am using the laptop example as a contrast here. It's possible that someone studies hard and uses a computer program to assist their studies.

My point is this: I respect strength born from effort more than strength born from a GPU.

I don't think this is an arrogant perspective.

Years of effort are worth respect without doubt.
AI can be used respectfully.

Agree