I think we're heading for one of a number of kos.
Either b13-4,w11-6,b10-5,w11-5,b11-4
Or b13-4,w11-6,b11-5,w10-5,b10-7,w12-2..
At this point in my dreams
B13-3,w13-5,black capture something, w12-6
But in reality
B11-4,w13-3 for I think a ko.
Seems likely I've missed something hope there are no ghost stones on my mental board! I am yet to reread the moves in the post
Re: MikeKyle v. TelegraphGo (Blind)
Posted: Tue Nov 19, 2019 5:38 am
by jlt
It's starting to get complicated, I think I'll start to look at diagrams pretty soon.
Re: MikeKyle v. TelegraphGo (Blind)
Posted: Tue Nov 19, 2019 9:45 am
by TelegraphGo
13-4
N4
Atari.
I don't blame jlt, this game is making progressively less sense. I just read this out in my hidden last move. Can't I can connect on top after he connects, where this exchange is really bad for W? The only think I can think of is that he wants to make ko and play 11-5 next, but even there I can push up at 12-6 and he's completely surrounded, still.
Don't make this kind of forcing move unless you're making another move significantly better than it would be otherwise. At this rate, even if he lives comfortably (somehow) I'll still coast to an easy victory from all the bad exchanges he's made.
I thought about adding a trigger for when he connects solid, but it's so obviously bad to connect solid I'm almost sure he has some other plan. I don't want my having set a trigger to change whatever he's cooking over there.
Re: MikeKyle v. TelegraphGo (Blind)
Posted: Tue Nov 19, 2019 9:47 am
by MikeKyle
11-6
L6
As previous. Could go very wrong very quickly for me
Re: MikeKyle v. TelegraphGo (Blind)
Posted: Tue Nov 19, 2019 10:00 am
by hyperpape
Interesting suggestion by TelegraphGo that this might be a position AI likes for W, but humans struggle with. Using Leela Master GX89, White is still narrowly favored (52-48%) at 6000 playouts, but it seems hard to me, and apparently also to MikeKyle.
Re: MikeKyle v. TelegraphGo (Blind)
Posted: Tue Nov 19, 2019 11:07 am
by Tryss
hyperpape wrote:
Interesting suggestion by TelegraphGo that this might be a position AI likes for W, but humans struggle with. Using Leela Master GX89, White is still narrowly favored (52-48%) at 6000 playouts, but it seems hard to me, and apparently also to MikeKyle.
Katago also put white slighly ahead 57%wr/1.7pts at 20k playouts
Posted: Tue Nov 19, 2019 11:45 am
by EdLee
diagram
Re: MikeKyle v. TelegraphGo (Blind)
Posted: Tue Nov 19, 2019 12:05 pm
by TelegraphGo
11-5
L5
Trigger if you play 10-5:
10-7
K7
(connect)
Cut.
I finally understand what he's going for, and why I didn't see it at all before. For some reason, after I played my jump at M5 to practically kill off K4, he decided he was going to make K4 live. At the very least, that's bad timing, because there was better opportunity for K4 before I played M5. More importantly, it's way too heavy. What would black have done if white ignored K4 for 50 moves? Probably nothing with respect to K4. So why should white immediately try to rescue it?
If you do feel a need to rescue K4, you should keep in mind that the stone itself is small. That's why I was suggesting crosscuts all over the place - the easiest way to stop your opponent from claiming a big area is to force them to make a choice within the area and take advantage of whichever direction they don't choose. Before he made these exchanges like kick and Atari, K4 was really light, so he could offer it as an option. Now, not so much.
The sequence I expect is 10-5 Atari, 10-7 connect, 11-4 connect, 13-5 connect, 12-2 double Atari, 13-3 connect. He then has to live with 9-6, 10-5, 10-4, 11-3, and a loose 12-2. It's probably possible, but we're looking at a heck of a lot of influence for me by whenever he lives.
Actually I see some potential ko variations on the left, so I think he shouldn't exchange the 11-4 connect and the 12-2 Atari, but save them for potential ko threats to help him live. Also, I'll have a harder time taking advantage of liberty shortages, potentially. So probably he should exchange the atari (since he's already committed to K4) and then play on the left somewhere. It's getting interesting!
Posted: Tue Nov 19, 2019 12:15 pm
by EdLee
diagram
Re: MikeKyle v. TelegraphGo (Blind)
Posted: Tue Nov 19, 2019 12:48 pm
by MikeKyle
10-5
K5
=> Trigger accepted b10-7
12-2
M2
This ko seems bigger and he does seem to have all the threats. Hopefully I have a lot of threats to just live.
Although I'm being beaten up a bit, this is a lot of fun!
Re: MikeKyle v. TelegraphGo (Blind)
Posted: Tue Nov 19, 2019 1:00 pm
by TelegraphGo
13-3
N3
Connect.
He used a ko threat - I guess he doesn't want me to play 11-2 first, but probably he could've always gotten back to this before I would have done that. Oh well. The ball is now firmly in his court.
Re: MikeKyle v. TelegraphGo (Blind)
Posted: Tue Nov 19, 2019 1:16 pm
by MikeKyle
13-5
N5
I'm a bit scared that I'm seeing ghost stones!
Or else..
Woo! I really like this result. I think I'm out and/or alive without strengthening black too much.
I really thought black needed to capture on the 4th line at which point I'd capture on the second line, he would cut on the 4th line and I would have to fight a ko
Re: MikeKyle v. TelegraphGo (Blind)
Posted: Tue Nov 19, 2019 2:20 pm
by TelegraphGo
14-4
O4
Captures: B - 2, W - 0
This is embarrassing. I missed this move entirely. It's atari on my four stones, and threatening a snapback on my two stones. If I capture 11-4 he will atari outside at 12-6, and if I connect 12-4, he will capture at 14-4. I played my last couple moves way too fast for a blindfold game, I should have been a little more careful. I can almost guarantee I'd have seen this in a non-blindfold game from when I played 13-2: I was purposefully looking for this kind of aji but couldn't quite find it. I should have played 12-2 instead, which is better shape but less greedy. I didn't even look for the combo from when he played 11-6, else I'd have backed off at 11-7 instead of cutting. I just over-trusted my blindfold reading and thought he had nothing here.
Anyway, when I capture at 14-4 he can play 12-6 regardless, and I can't save the stone because of snapback. After that he has 11-6 and 12-6 facing the center and connected, where I have 10-7 and 14-7 pulling a very half-hearted surround. My attack here is mostly over, though I'll probably play a move on the left to solidify myself next - my weaknesses are much more brutally exploited when he's not half-dead. It might even end up being sente, since I can play 13-6 to prevent an eye in the snapback formation. My style relies that I catch all these sorts of tricks in my normal games
Alas. I never claimed to play well blindfolded! I'll probably have a little less trust in my blind reading from now on. I still think I have a good chance of winning this game - I judge the board as just about proper for what the handicap should be between us. I'm not going to overplay or go crazy, but if I play good moves he should make enough small errors that I can make the game close by the endgame. Probably a more educational game than the blind-reading festival it was going to be.
Re: MikeKyle v. TelegraphGo (Blind)
Posted: Tue Nov 19, 2019 2:38 pm
by MikeKyle
12-6
M6
Have I settled here in sente?
Black can probably tenuki, but I "see" just one eye. Reading isn't as hard as I thought it might be (accepting that I could be looking very stupid if I'm missing something) but judging results is hard.