#267 rlaalswo v. fevobod152

rlaalswo
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Re: #267 rlaalswo v. fevobod152

Post by rlaalswo »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O X O X . O . . X X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O X . . . . O X . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O X . . O . . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O B X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . X . . O . O , . . . . . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . X X . . . . . O . O O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c looks bad for black
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O X O X . O . . X X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O X . . . . O X . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O X 3 . O . . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . 2 X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O 1 . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O 4 X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 5 O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . X . . O . O , . . . . . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . X X . . . . . O . O O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
fevobod152
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Re: #267 rlaalswo v. fevobod152

Post by fevobod152 »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O X O X . O . . X X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O X . . . . O X . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O X . . O . . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . W X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . X . . O . O , . . . . . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . X X . . . . . O . O O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

rlaalswo
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Re: #267 rlaalswo v. fevobod152

Post by rlaalswo »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O X O X . O . . X X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O X . . . . O X . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O X B . O . . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . X . . O . O , . . . . . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . X X . . . . . O . O O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
fevobod152
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Re: #267 rlaalswo v. fevobod152

Post by fevobod152 »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O X O X . O . . X X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O X . . . . O X . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X . O . . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . W . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . X . . O . O , . . . . . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . X X . . . . . O . O O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
rlaalswo
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Re: #267 rlaalswo v. fevobod152

Post by rlaalswo »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O X O X . O . . X X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O X . . . . O X . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X . O . . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O 2 O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O 1 . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , 3 . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . X . . O . O , . . . . . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . X X . . . . . O . O O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c white cannot cut
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O X O X . O . . X X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O X . . . . O X . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X . O . . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O 2 O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O 1 . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O 4 5 O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , 3 6 . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . X . . O . O , . . . . . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . X X . . . . . O . O O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
fevobod152
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Re: #267 rlaalswo v. fevobod152

Post by fevobod152 »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O X O X . O . . X X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O X . . . . O X . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X . O . . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O X . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , X . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . X . . O . O , . . . . . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . X X . . . . . O . O O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Finishing shape. I expect Black will do the same with G10.
rlaalswo
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Re: #267 rlaalswo v. fevobod152

Post by rlaalswo »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O X O X . O . . X X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O X . . . B O X . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X . O . . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O X . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , X . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . X . . O . O , . . . . . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . X X . . . . . O . O O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Aiming H12.
fevobod152
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Re: #267 rlaalswo v. fevobod152

Post by fevobod152 »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O X O X . O . . X X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O X . . . X O X . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X . O . . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O O X . . W . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O X . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , X . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . X . . O . O , . . . . . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . X X . . . . . O . O O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

The L16 stone is not as important as the unsettled Black group. White would like to push and cut at E11, play a stone that reinforces against the Black wedges at H16 amd H14 and cut at H12, and is able to respond to Black's followup around L14/L15. J14 is a good candidate, while also building eye shape. Perhaps there are better moves, but this seems good enough (an 80% move).
TelegraphGo
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Re: #267 rlaalswo v. fevobod152

Post by TelegraphGo »

So far I've found white's play instructive, but this is the first move from white that I don't feel good about. After reviewing many games with AI, I've developed some affinity for their preferences, and they really don't like to play heavy-slow-thick (sometimes 1 or 2, but almost never all three). It's 100% light play, weakest area, and pedal-to-the-metal with an AI. I think this move is a little misaligned from that, because the wedges weren't as apparently volatile as the connections around E10.

It's definitely desirable to play at the upper white group, but I would much prefer to add thickness around H10/J10/J11 - heck, even tengen might be better. The point is that the important area for the group, and for the game, is the center. H17 can be sacrificed, since nothing works right away and capturing would need significant commitment from black.

Taking 80% of what you greedily want is a philosophy I ought to apply more, but being too narrow and heavy with defense often makes life harder. Aiming for 100% and offering 20% as a sacrifice is a more reliable route to secure a fine result, in my experience.

We haven't had many comments yet, so I'll give my best guess at a forecast of the game. Strategically, I'm thinking both sides need to be looking for sente to play first on the right and the bottom. Black has four corners, so if they keep initiative with reductions during the midgame they will win. On the other hand, if white gets H3 and initiative at the upper right, I can see some moyo forming that black could just fail to keep up with. Right now, I'm expecting G10 and some exciting high-value fighting, with many opportunities for a fun tenuki, to follow.

(also, I'm coming back to my blind game soon, I've just got to settle myself down first)
rlaalswo
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Re: #267 rlaalswo v. fevobod152

Post by rlaalswo »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O X O X . O . . X X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O X . . . X O X . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X . O . . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O O X . . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O X . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , X B . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . X . . O . O , . . . . . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . X X . . . . . O . O O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

White's last move was very unexpected, but it does connect the white stones solidly making E11 cut a powerful move. I couldn't find a better response than this bamboo joint connection. With white's last move, it has also gained a lot of potential on the center.
fevobod152
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Re: #267 rlaalswo v. fevobod152

Post by fevobod152 »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O X O X . O . . X X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O X . . . X O X . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X . O . . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O O X . . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O X . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , X X . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . W . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . X . . O . O , . . . . . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . X X . . . . . O . O O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Expanding the center while keeping pressure on Black.
rlaalswo
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Re: #267 rlaalswo v. fevobod152

Post by rlaalswo »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O X O X . O . . X X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O X . . . X O X . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X . O . . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O O X . . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O X . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , X X . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . B . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . X . . O . O , . . . . . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . X X . . . . . O . O O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Leaning to make shape. If white responds with C8, black can play elsewhere.
fevobod152
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Re: #267 rlaalswo v. fevobod152

Post by fevobod152 »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O X O X . O . . X X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O X . . . X O X . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X . O . . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O O X . . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O X . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , X X . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O W . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . X . . O . O , . . . . . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . X X . . . . . O . O O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

For this position, there are too many moves to consider writing about, so I've narrowed it to some big ideas.

Preserving the push and cut at D9 is more valuable than attempting to block off additional bottom-center territory around F8. This relates to the following points. The upper-right is far and away the most valuable area of the board, so sacrificing potential in other areas to gain more in this area is worth it. Black has forcing moves around Q8, J11 and G5. K3 is also a nasty invasion. Although blocking at White S7 induces R4 and enables Black to enter the center around O4, it would allow White to remove K3 when responding. S7 also lets White respond to the Q8 forcing move with R9. As for the H13 group, it's currently acceptable for it to earn a minor amount of points in exchange for potential and territory elsewhere.

I intend to followup at R14.
rlaalswo
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Re: #267 rlaalswo v. fevobod152

Post by rlaalswo »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O X O X . O . . X X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O X . . . X O X . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X . O . . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O O X . . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O X . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , X X . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . X . . O . O , . . . . . X B X . |
$$ | . . . . . X X . . . . . O . O O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Interesting timing because I'd at least do D9 F8 exchange if I wanted to take sente, but it's true that black currently hasn't some strong move to play first on the left side because the group is weak. White has gained influence on the right side, but black has regained O4.
fevobod152
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Re: #267 rlaalswo v. fevobod152

Post by fevobod152 »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O X O X . O . . X X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O X . . . X O X . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X . O . . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O O X . . O . . . . . . . W . . |
$$ | . . . X O X . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , X X . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . X . . O . O , . . . . . X X X . |
$$ | . . . . . X X . . . . . O . O O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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