Re: A study of Takagawa
Posted: Thu Sep 14, 2023 3:21 pm
Final game in this thread, Takagawa's first against Segoe Kensaku.
Life in 19x19. Go, Weiqi, Baduk... Thats the life.
https://lifein19x19.com/
It's true enough, and he devised the phrase himself. But it's rather more nuanced than it seems.Could you tell me again how T. Mark Hall gained two stones by "merely" transcribing them [=Go Seigen's games]?
I think this is accurate enough (and very useful), but you may care to note that Matthew Macfadyen used the term "virtual territory" rather than "potential territory" for the same ideas, and I think he was the first to express the concept in English (someone had to take the trouble: for reasons I won't go into, there's not much need to have the concept spelt out in quite the same way in Japanese because the word 'moyo' itself alerts you well enough to the inherent vagueness). I suspect Matthew chose 'virtual' because at the time it was becoming a bit of a buzz-word in computer circles. But FWIW I think, as a native speaker, that it does indeed have a slight edge over 'potential'. The specific portion of the concept that encompasses the idea of 'entice the opponent to invade your moyo and let him live small' came from a lecture I gave at the old London Go Centre. It opened a lot of eyes very wide. No credit to me. I basically just read out what Takemiya said in a go magazine. In general, I think Matthew is the one to credit. He was/is a lot more active (and talented) than most strong players in sharing his insights into go.Moyo is potential territory and the invader dies or half of the moyo persists as territory, or the invader gets small life with thickness all around. That's my intuition about moyos. This result is a new kind of positive outcome. Well, I must have seen it before but not articulated it so clearly for myself.
I was both intrigued and baffled by this the first time I saw it. I just assumed a typo for 'outcrop', but even that seemed strange. But now it's repeated....how often did crops of center territory emerge
As it happens, it was ez4u who added the big section to SL, containing the word.John Fairbairn wrote:I was both intrigued and baffled by this the first time I saw it. I just assumed a typo for 'outcrop', but even that seemed strange. But now it's repeated....how often did crops of center territory emerge
So, what meaning of 'crop' is intended?
If the idea is to use it as a kind of measure word (maybe the commonest usage outside of farming), it needs an adjective of some sort - heavy crop of fruit, thick crop of hair, current crop of top players, latest crop of dog attacks, etc etc. And then it's the adjective that carries the main meaning.
There is of course the cropping of images and so on. Is a curtailed or cut-down territory the meaning?
Or is the idea merely a (too?) vague horticultural one? Why not 'area' or just 'territory?
Outcrop still seems the likeliest concept to me - territory that emerges unexpectedly in the remote centre, like a solitary rock rising unexpectedly alone out of the ground. But if so, that is a devastatingly new and exciting concept in go theory and so we NEED to know more!
Please, please de-baffle me!
I think this gives a rather different impression of Takagawa, there is for one thing no mention of "influence", "center" or "counting".Sada Atsushi wrote:Takagawa 22nd Honinbo [style(?)] was called the ``Heimei-ryu'' because of his rational and big-picture style of playing[...]. [He doesn't fall behind despite (?)] avoiding complicated battles and choosing clear diagrams. The control on the board is very good.
First and foremost, the study was an attempt to answer the question "is it particularly helpful to study Takagawa('s games)". That presupposes there's anything particular about his games, which we can call his style. If SL provides a weak description of his style, then improving on the page itself is always a good option. In my view there's no "them and us" when it comes to SL, only us.kvasir wrote:Then it is time for the critical review![]()
A preconcieved understanding of Takagawa
The study's hypothesis appears to relay on Sensei's library for a description of Takagawa's style.
That is a weak foundation.
I found noneSeek out competing hypothesis and test which fits best
start without preconceptions and try to formulate a description by exploring the games
I wouldn't feel confident to do so and I found it more productive to start from a hypothesis, which may or not have been a degenerated rendition of what once was professional insight. We have quotes by Sakata on the SL page. I assume it's not that misguided.
Here is a recent attempt at describing Takagawa's style to show how the (Sensei's inspired?) hypothesis might not be a commonly accepted starting point:
(Machine translated from https://www.nihonkiin.or.jp/etc/writer/ ... 20902.html)I think this gives a rather different impression of Takagawa, there is for one thing no mention of "influence", "center" or "counting".Sada Atsushi wrote:Takagawa 22nd Honinbo [style(?)] was called the ``Heimei-ryu'' because of his rational and big-picture style of playing[...]. [He doesn't fall behind despite (?)] avoiding complicated battles and choosing clear diagrams. The control on the board is very good.
At least you have participated and are now offering your view on how it could have been done.Elsewhere he is said to have played like a "tanuki". That is interesting but I can't say I understand the reference. Maybe his opponents meant that he didn't reveal his true form on the Go board. It is probably meant as humor but maybe it is a hint that his way defied description by his contemporaries?
Possibly the study's conclusions are undermined by starting out from a single understanding of Takagawa. It could have been possible to consider multiple understandings of Takagawa or to simply start with a clean sheet and allowing and understanding to form after exploration.
At any rate only one understanding of Takagawa's style was explored, which is a weakness.
I thought I did. How conclusive or convincing it was ... I'm sure it could have been much more elaborate in all directions.
Something that was not always clear was if the discussion was about style and how it related to the hypothesis. It is also not clear how the conclusion were drawn or if the hypothesis are accepted or rejected. Not that the discussion was uninteresting
If not impossible, this approach is way beyond my reach.It is also not clear if the method is to look for positive examples or negative examples. There would also appear to be a need to contrast any example with what other players would have done in the same situation, of course KataGo does offer insight but I think it can just as well reject a Takagawa move as it can accept one that would have been ridiculed by his opponent's.
I agree. I should have made a better selection. I wanted it to be unbiased so I chose a selection mechanism that couldn't bias me, but it ended up being biased towards his early days.The games are all early games of Takagawa, from the 30s and 40s, from before he became 9 dan or the Honinbo title holder. Takagawa seems to have been a late bloomer, so these games are not when he was at the peak.
I see. Yes, I can see why the exercise was a priori collaborative but how I narrowed the scope for interaction.
A more exploratory study, where there are less preconceptions, would have been more interesting.
The hypothesis and other preconceptions in the formulation of the plan could be one a reason why there was less contributions from others.
What I am trying to say is that maybe it wasn't clear to other than the OP that the hypothesis were important for understanding Takagawa's style. It is harder to contribute anything when you are unsure what the discussion is about.
On a forum about Go, moreover where I think by now most know my personality, I would not think it's necessary to repeat that. I don't want to be fishing too much for approval or debate either. If people are genuinely interested, I expect they join in.Time is also a factor, maybe more people would have gotten involved if the thread didn't move along so fast. Possibly posting one topic per-game and not creating more than one topic per week would leave more room for contributions. It also could be made clearer that discussion on the games is welcome.
I personally have never seen heimei used in any special connection with Takagawa, but I can see how a writer might choose that description about his play. There is nothing special about the word itself nowadays, though. It just means plain, simple, transparent. Historically it has some nuances (apart from meaning 'dawn') in Chinese philosophy where it was used for a recommended way of governing that was fair/just and clear (i.e. deconstructed as 公平で明か). Xunzi, one of the great Confucianists was attached to this notion.Takagawa is something of a synonym for a certain style that is called 平明流. I doubt it is easy give complete definition, it probably has too strong connection to Takagawa to allow anyone to come later and say "here is a definition of what this way of playing is".
I wouldn't say he was said to play like a tanuki. It's more that he himself was likened to a tanuki (or more specifically a bake-danuki, the mythological version). The name comes from the 8th Honinbo Tournament in 1953, when he was defending for the first time, against Kitani. In those days, the Mainichi used to run a pre-match readers' poll as to who would win (Kitani was the 65% favourite) and Kido also ran a pre-match round-table interview with top players. It was at the latter that Maeda Nobuaki 7-dan was one of those bucking the poll and was lending support to Takagawa. To explain why, Maeda said that although Takagawa had not been doing so well in ordinary games just then, he did win the games that mattered, such as in the Honinbo and Oteai. He was a wily man, like a tanuki, he joked. I could imagine the alliteration (Tanuki no Takagawa) played a part in the public latching on to the name, as no doubt did the fact that he did defy the odds and win (this was also the match where Kitani collapsed afterwards from blood pressure problems and so lost his place at the top table). However, the reason above all that the name stuck, I am sure, is that Takagawa was known as a jolly, fun-loving guy, who laughed at himself when he got into scrapes. A reasonably close equivalent of the tanuki in this sense in modern terms may be Paddington Bear - or, at a pinch and if you are old enough to remember, Winnie the Pooh.Elsewhere he is said to have played like a "tanuki". That is interesting but I can't say I understand the reference. Maybe his opponents meant that he didn't reveal his true form on the Go board. It is probably meant as humor but maybe it is a hint that his way defied description by his contemporaries?