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Re: Teamovitch #1
Posted: Wed Oct 27, 2010 1:50 am
by topazg
For observers and teammates:
Re: Teamovitch #1
Posted: Wed Oct 27, 2010 4:15 am
by Jordus
Black Internal chat:
Joaz Banbeck wrote:
But the 5-3 kakari under a 5-4 is again a move that emphasises the side.
$$Bc
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bc
Black gives white an easy corner, which according to proverb, is worth more than a side. It only works if black has a presence on the upper side such as the marked stones above to make the side worth more.
$$Bc
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bc
With this suggestion I was working under the assumption of white playing at 2 (From Jim Davies Attack and Defense, "The best way to attack is to not attach to a stone") then black follows up with a,b,or c...
*edit* I suppose black could play at e also... but it just doesn't appeal to me without an extension stone first
I did consider white attaching...
$$Bc
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bc
I figured this sequence here would make for an interesting fight.. if white responds to 3 at a, then black plays at b.. if white responds at b, then black makes an interesting ko at a...
*Edit* I suppose
could be played at x or y..... but white still gets the corner...
$$Bc
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bc
But now that I read it out after a short nap, the ko doesn't look so good...
$$Bc
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bc
This sequence white probably take the corner loke so, and play plays an extension to the side at a,b,or c..
Looking at this sequence in the full diagram...
$$Bcm5
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm5
I would much prefer having a stone at abcd or e... so white can not extend... you also have the danger of white f.... However even with the danger of that, white still has their unprotected corner at around g that black can play to counter those...
*EDIT* I restructured the post..
Re: Teamovitch #1
Posted: Wed Oct 27, 2010 6:39 am
by Chew Terr
topazg wrote: For observers and teammates:
$$Bc
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bc
If they do, I like this, or something like it. It denies their enclosure its ideal direction of play, takes the preferred direction from our 4-5, and threatens D17. I could say pretty much for sure that my suggestion would be somewhere near here, though I would have to consider the relative merits of playing a point or so in each direction.
Re: Teamovitch #1
Posted: Wed Oct 27, 2010 7:12 am
by Redundant
Chew Terr wrote: topazg wrote: For observers and teammates:
$$Bc
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bc
If they do, I like this, or something like it. It denies their enclosure its ideal direction of play, takes the preferred direction from our 4-5, and threatens D17. I could say pretty much for sure that my suggestion would be somewhere near here, though I would have to consider the relative merits of playing a point or so in each direction.
$$Bc
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bc
I'm trying to figure out if this is too close to the enclosure. This makes black want even less to approach us from his shimari, and if somehow he tries to pressure us from above, we can always settle with C6 or C5, although C5 trades the corner aji to settle.
Re: Teamovitch #1
Posted: Wed Oct 27, 2010 7:17 am
by topazg
Re: Teamovitch #1
Posted: Wed Oct 27, 2010 7:31 am
by Chew Terr
Redundant wrote: Chew Terr wrote: topazg wrote: For observers and teammates:
$$Bc
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bc
If they do, I like this, or something like it. It denies their enclosure its ideal direction of play, takes the preferred direction from our 4-5, and threatens D17. I could say pretty much for sure that my suggestion would be somewhere near here, though I would have to consider the relative merits of playing a point or so in each direction.
$$Bc
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bc
I'm trying to figure out if this is too close to the enclosure. This makes black want even less to approach us from his shimari, and if somehow he tries to pressure us from above, we can always settle with C6 or C5, although C5 trades the corner aji to settle.
Re: Teamovitch #1
Posted: Wed Oct 27, 2010 7:18 pm
by Joaz Banbeck
Black Internal chat:
Jordus wrote:
$$Bc
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bc
...
True, the above 2 may be better, but it still ends up with white having a corner and black getting a side.
Re: Teamovitch #1 Move #5
Posted: Wed Oct 27, 2010 7:42 pm
by Joaz Banbeck
$$Bc
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bc
Ok, it is for real this time.
I looked at P4. It is one of the standard approaches to the 3-5, but with the natural play in the corner, it looks like this:
$$Bc
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bc
...'a' and 'b' are miai, and white with comes away with 2 shimaris or the only shimari. That should be a privilege that only black can get by having the first move. To find ourselves in such a position suggests that we are squandering the advantage of the first move.
Re: Teamovitch #1
Posted: Wed Oct 27, 2010 7:50 pm
by Chew Terr
Re: Teamovitch #1
Posted: Wed Oct 27, 2010 10:28 pm
by Redundant
Re: Teamovitch #1
Posted: Wed Oct 27, 2010 10:38 pm
by tj86430
Re: Teamovitch #1
Posted: Thu Oct 28, 2010 2:42 am
by topazg
$$Wcm6 Move 6 - B:0 - W:0
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wcm6 Move 6 - B:0 - W:0
Let's let Black get thinking about their next move. I'm picking this one, and my reasoning will all follow when I get a spare 30 minutes
Re: Teamovitch #1
Posted: Thu Oct 28, 2010 4:04 am
by topazg
To Chew:
To Red:
I'm really happy you've moved the point one lower than Chew. C9 to me is absolutely perfect, for a number of reasons:
1) we still have the downwards two space jump, which totally wrecks the shimari's hopes, so Black can't easily pincer. Also, Black's pincering
doesn't have the opportunity of a two space jump upwards. As a result, if Black pincered here, he can't even hope to approach in the top left without biting off more than he can chew everywhere
$$Wcm6 Move 6 - B:0 - W:0
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wcm6 Move 6 - B:0 - W:0
2) If Black approaches from below, it's even less efficient than if it was approaching C10, and we can get a two point jump that creates fabulous shape with the corner. For example:
$$Wcm6 Move 6 - B:0 - W:0
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wcm6 Move 6 - B:0 - W:0
After this sequence, for example, we can now take the a->b->c sequence, and we have d an e aji to play with at the top, and perfect enclosure type formations with one of the f points in the lower right. Harmonious is an understatement. C9 just screams efficiency to me, and it's not overstretching. It's exactly where I wanted to play.
To TJ:
Thanks for the alternative option. On the offchance I really didn't like the left, if they've got the points you'd have chosen, you can always pick somewhere else completely. That said, I'm really happy all 3 of us felt it was so important to play there. I'm less keen on high because of the folllowing:
$$Wcm6 Move 6 - B:0 - W:0
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wcm6 Move 6 - B:0 - W:0 is really annoying now. It's a half decent extension for Black, and really annoyingly it also leaves an open skirt, making it hard for White to transform the upper left into good territory.
high may be ok if
works nicely (for example, with a strong influential position on top of the board), but here it feels like a bit of a "Paris Hilton" move. It probably thinks it looks awesome and pretty, but is unlikely to do anything actually useful with itself.
All three of you rock, Black should be quaking in their collective boots already
Re: Teamovitch #1
Posted: Thu Oct 28, 2010 5:17 am
by gaius
Hmmm. I would love to put some burning critique in a hidden tag now. Instead:
Unfortunately (for me), I think all the moves so far have been excellent
.
Re: Teamovitch #1
Posted: Thu Oct 28, 2010 9:01 am
by Joaz Banbeck
To black players:
Does the bravdo seem a little forced to you? I think that they are panicking.
They had two separate opportunities to enclose a corner and did not take either one, because they read that we get an advantage if they did.
This move, like all theoretically dubious moves, leaves a better move for us. Somewhere. I don't know what it is, for I haven't had the time to look closely, but it should be there.
To all: I'm at a convention for the rest of the week; I probably won't be replying until Saturday afternoon.
To black players:
could be played at x or y..... but white still gets the corner...
doesn't have the opportunity of a two space jump upwards. As a result, if Black pincered here, he can't even hope to approach in the top left without biting off more than he can chew everywhere
high may be ok if 
works nicely (for example, with a strong influential position on top of the board), but here it feels like a bit of a "Paris Hilton" move. It probably thinks it looks awesome and pretty, but is unlikely to do anything actually useful with itself.
.
They had two separate opportunities to enclose a corner and did not take either one, because they read that we get an advantage if they did.