Life In 19x19

Posted: **Sun Jul 10, 2011 4:47 pm**

I suggest we continue the game with sgf, it's a lot easier.
[sgf-full](;CA[hz-gb-2312]SZ[19]AP[MultiGo:4.4.4]MULTIGOGM[1]
;B[qd];W[dd];B[oc];W[qo];B[dp];W[pq];B[kq];W[cn];B[fp];W[bp];B[cq];W[ck];B[qj];W[jd]
(;B[cf]LB[cc:A]C[Can we agree to continue with EdLee's move here? The only other option I see here is A, and that doesn't look promising to me.])
(;B[cc];W[cd];B[dc];W[ec];B[eb];W[fc];B[fb];W[gc];B[bd];W[be];B[bc];W[cf]
(;B[oj];W[fj]C[This seems unacceptable.])
(;B[dj];W[dk];B[fj];W[ek];B[fh];W[gl]C[To me this seems better for white.])))[/sgf-full]

Posted: **Sun Jul 10, 2011 4:52 pm**

There is a Many Universes theory in physics saying that at every instant every universe splits into every possible future. All these universe then lives next to each other. Well I am not going to be stubborn and split the game into two parallel ones. Ed's reasons now make me feel at ease with R13.

Posted: **Mon Jul 11, 2011 4:48 am**

nagano wrote:I suggest we continue the game with sgf, it's a lot easier.

OK, though I am not a big fan of your preferred method.
To speed up I added the 3 "obvious" next moves. I am not sure playing sequences is acceptable in Goback. So if you dislike pls go back.

[sgf-full]http://www.lifein19x19.com/forum/download/file.php?id=1020[/sgf-full]

As a child I always played chess against myself. Mostly I won.

Posted: **Mon Jul 11, 2011 6:41 pm**

I agree with that sequence, but will leave it for others to object if so desired. Certainly other moves can be considered.

Posted: **Mon Jul 11, 2011 7:00 pm**

FWIW, I would have been in favour of this reduction:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm13 $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X X O O O . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . X O O . . . . . O . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , B . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . O . X . X . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . X . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Posted: **Mon Jul 11, 2011 8:44 pm**

@topazg Interesting move, certainly worth considering. How would you respond after the diagonal contact?

Posted: **Tue Jul 12, 2011 6:36 am**

it is already super hard to know what is the actual position... :-?

Topazg you are proposing an alternative to the game, but not an actual "go back" is that correct ?

Posted: **Tue Jul 12, 2011 6:48 am**

These were the moves I'd been considering:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm27 $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X X O O O . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . X O O . . . . . O . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . 4 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 2 1 . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . O . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . O . X . X . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . X . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm27 $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X X O O O . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . X O O . . . . . O . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 6 1 . 5 . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . O . 2 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . O . X . X . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . X . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

The second one is kinda awkward though.

@perceval: I guess one of the GoBack's got rejected on the basis of this general sequence being unacceptable - so this _might_ trigger a correction, even though that hadn't really been my intent when I posted.

Posted: **Tue Jul 12, 2011 11:26 am**

I mostly agree with that sequence, but as white in both cases I would double hane, and in the first diagram I would play black 33 a point closer to the weaker group. I think white solidifies too much territory then.

Posted: **Tue Jul 12, 2011 11:40 am**

nagano wrote:I mostly agree with that sequence, but as white in both cases I would double hane, and in the first diagram I would play black 33 a point closer to the weaker group. I think white solidifies too much territory then.

Hmmm, double hane does look better in the first one. However, I would still rather take Black here:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm27 $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X X O O O . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . X O O . . . . . O . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . 6 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . 4 5 7 9 . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 2 1 . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . O . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . O . X . X . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . X . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

In the second one, there's no double hane:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm27 $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X X O O O . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . X O O . . . . . O . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 9 7 1 . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . 0 O 5 2 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 8 6 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . O . X . X . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . X . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

If White's going to have a wall like that, neutralising it with a living group and hopefully some central influence feels fine - Black's position in the top right is very good, the lower left looks fine, and White's lost the majority of his development potential - he's got cash, but it doesn't have huge prospects for becoming a lot more cash - am I mis-evaluating here?

Posted: **Tue Jul 12, 2011 11:50 am**

I'm sorry, I should have clarified, and I looked too quickly at your second diagram, assuming it was starting with the same move. What I meant was:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm27 $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X X O O O . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . X O O . . . . . O . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 1 X . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . O . 3 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . O . X . X . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . X . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

For that matter, I don't think the attachment works at all:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm27 $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X X O O O . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . X O O . . . . . O . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 2 . X . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . O . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . O . X . X . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . X . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

I think this is too hard to deal with.

Posted: **Tue Jul 12, 2011 12:01 pm**

nagano wrote:I'm sorry, I should have clarified, and I looked too quickly at your second diagram, assuming it was starting with the same move. What I meant was:

$$Wcm27
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X O O O . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . O . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 1 X . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . O . 3 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . O . X . X . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . X . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm27 $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X X O O O . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . X O O . . . . . O . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 1 X . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . O . 3 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . O . X . X . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . X . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Ah, yes, no problem, I don't Black can extend in this direction at all.

nagano wrote:For that matter, I don't think the attachment works at all:
$$Wcm27
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X O O O . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . O . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 3 2 6 X . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . O 4 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . O . X . X . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . X . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm27 $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X X O O O . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . X O O . . . . . O . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 3 2 6 X . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . O 4 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . O . X . X . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . X . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

I think this is too hard to deal with.

I agree, this does look severe.

Posted: **Wed Jul 13, 2011 6:20 am**

perceval wrote:it is already super hard to know what is the actual position...

Topazg you are proposing an alternative to the game, but not an actual "go back" is that correct ?

Time to decide. Do we proceed from here or is there someone (Topasz?) going back?

Posted: **Wed Jul 13, 2011 10:26 am**

[sgf-full](;CA[hz-gb-2312]SZ[19]AP[MultiGo:4.4.4]MULTIGOGM[1]
;B[qd];W[dd];B[oc];W[qo];B[dp];W[pq];B[kq];W[cn];B[fp];W[bp];B[cq];W[ck];B[qj];W[jd]
(;B[cf]LB[cc:A]C[nagano\:Can we agree to continue with EdLee's move here? The only other option I see here is A, and that doesn't look promising to me.]
;W[ce])
(;B[cc];W[cd];B[dc];W[ec];B[eb];W[fc];B[fb];W[gc];B[bd];W[be];B[bc];W[cf]
(;B[oj];W[fj]C[nagano\: This seems unacceptable.])
(;B[dj];W[dk];B[fj];W[ek];B[fh];W[gl]C[nagano\: To me this seems better for white.])))[/sgf-full]
I believe the other path was intended to be a side note.

Posted: **Wed Jul 13, 2011 6:20 pm**

[sgf-full]http://www.lifein19x19.com/forum/download/file.php?id=1029[/sgf-full]
Otherwise white will play there and have a favourable exchange.

Life In 19x19

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