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Re: Big Brother Malkovich #3
Posted: Wed Feb 09, 2011 6:06 pm
by Phelan
$$Bc Move 8... P: B-0, W-0... C: B-8(10) W-10(7)
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bc Move 8... P: B-0, W-0... C: B-8(10) W-10(7)
Basic instinct, at least for me. Stretch any more and get invaded, stretch any less and the base is too cramped.
Even after looking at other moves, nothing makes more sense than this.
$$Bc What next?
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bc What next?I'd play this
if I was black. Then I'd reply with either a or b, not sure yet.
I'll post my thoughts on it tomorrow.
Re: Big Brother Malkovich #3
Posted: Wed Feb 09, 2011 6:46 pm
by Marcus
Re: Big Brother Malkovich #3
Posted: Wed Feb 09, 2011 6:48 pm
by Violence
Re: Big Brother Malkovich #3
Posted: Wed Feb 09, 2011 6:49 pm
by dangomango
not sure why shaddy changed the move
$$Bc Move 7... P: B-0, W-0... C: B-8(10) W-10(7)
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bc Move 7... P: B-0, W-0... C: B-8(10) W-10(7)some ppl consider this wrong direction
usually when we play this type of move, we usually probe first
$$Bc Move 7... P: B-0, W-0... C: B-8(10) W-10(7)
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bc Move 7... P: B-0, W-0... C: B-8(10) W-10(7)or play the super normal sequences(joseki) - here players can choose complex variation or simple one
Black chooses between a or b
White chooses between c or d after black plays a or b
$$Bc Move 7... P: B-0, W-0... C: B-8(10) W-10(7)
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bc Move 7... P: B-0, W-0... C: B-8(10) W-10(7)and of course i prefer this than the changed move
maybe shaddy can enlighten us on his move later
Re: Big Brother Malkovich #3
Posted: Wed Feb 09, 2011 6:57 pm
by dangomango
just looked at game #2, they dont even number moves like us now
Re: Big Brother Malkovich #3
Posted: Wed Feb 09, 2011 7:23 pm
by jts
dangomango wrote: just looked at game #2, they dont even number moves like us now
At the top of the diagram is says something like
$$Bc
This is equivalent to the default,
$$Bcm1
which turns the stone marked "1" in the diagram into
(and "2" into
, etc.)
$$Wcm1
turns "1" into
$$Bcm11
should turn "1" into Black 11.
Re: Big Brother Malkovich #3
Posted: Wed Feb 09, 2011 7:39 pm
by Shaddy
Re: Big Brother Malkovich #3
Posted: Wed Feb 09, 2011 8:16 pm
by jts
Hokay, so. I'm pretty sure that we can tenuki from the right side now. But not completely sure. I want to think through how we'll respond to k14 and q13 before doing anything rash.
As I'm thinking about it..... W doesn't have a ton of space. I ought to have some way to harass W in sente until
is strong. But I could just end up provoking moves like s5 or q10 that solidify white. Maybe I should play q10 myself? I don't think that's the right approach; you attack weak stones at a distance. But maybe in this context r12 is the weak stone, and it needs some help pronto.
I'm leaning towards k17 now. I think the upper right is too unstable to simply play the c10 wedge. But we may need to keep playing on the right side. (Meta-strategy: I'm pretty sure now that the best tenuki points are k17 and c10. On the other hand, I can think of eight places to play on the right. So if I ought to play on the right side, Shaddy will almost certainly change it anyway, but if I ought to tenuki, I have a pretty good chance of getting it right.)
Re: Big Brother Malkovich #3
Posted: Thu Feb 10, 2011 10:53 am
by jts
Looking at the options, directly trying to cut the two stones works okay, but will lead to a messy fight - hard to say that we're ahead on the right side still.
$$Bcm9 Move 8... P: B-0, W-0... C: B-8(10) W-10(7)
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm9 Move 8... P: B-0, W-0... C: B-8(10) W-10(7)Peeping at the cut works a little better:
$$Bcm9 Move 8... P: B-0, W-0... C: B-8(10) W-10(7)
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm9 Move 8... P: B-0, W-0... C: B-8(10) W-10(7)$$Bcm9 Move 8... P: B-0, W-0... C: B-8(10) W-10(7)
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm9 Move 8... P: B-0, W-0... C: B-8(10) W-10(7)Those both seem really good for B to me, so I think W is forced to stay low.... this isn't horrible for W, and we still have a cutting point at "a", but I think we're looking pretty strong and white still isn't perfectly safe. The question is, will some sort of exchange like this be better than k17?
$$Bcm9 Move 8... P: B-0, W-0... C: B-8(10) W-10(7)
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm9 Move 8... P: B-0, W-0... C: B-8(10) W-10(7)post-script:
If we cut directly it doesn't matter if we start at r9 or r8, but if we peep q9 and q8 are different... I think it's fairly obvious that, if you just flip the shapes in my 2nd and 3rd diagram, now W's stronger shape is trapped between our cutting stones and our enclosure. Not sure whether that works better when W chooses to stay on the third row, though, which is what matters.
$$Bcm9 Move 8... P: B-0, W-0... C: B-8(10) W-10(7)
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm9 Move 8... P: B-0, W-0... C: B-8(10) W-10(7)That actually looks better to me. I'm having that "I spent a long time thinking about this sequence so I'm gonna play it, gosh darn it" feeling...
Re: Big Brother Malkovich #3
Posted: Thu Feb 10, 2011 7:09 pm
by jts
$$Bc Move 9... P: B-0, W-0... C: B-8(9) W-10(7)
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bc Move 9... P: B-0, W-0... C: B-8(9) W-10(7)
Oh also -
here has the advantage of sort-of defending against Wp5, which is now just a normal elephant jump.
Re: Big Brother Malkovich #3
Posted: Thu Feb 10, 2011 7:55 pm
by schilds
Re: Big Brother Malkovich #3
Posted: Thu Feb 10, 2011 8:12 pm
by dangomango
not sure if we keep changing moves like this, how long we can last haha
$$Bc Move 9... P: B-0, W-0... C: B-7(9) W-10(7)
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bc Move 9... P: B-0, W-0... C: B-7(9) W-10(7)
tbh i dont mind the move played by jts but, his sequence bothers me
$$Bc Move 9... P: B-0, W-0... C: B-8(9) W-10(7)
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bc Move 9... P: B-0, W-0... C: B-8(9) W-10(7)this is normal with next possible move at a or b
if possible would like to have both meaning it would be better if we have k17 type stone before this sequence is played out
$$Bc Move 9... P: B-0, W-0... C: B-8(9) W-10(7)
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bc Move 9... P: B-0, W-0... C: B-8(9) W-10(7)white will most likely answer with a jump on either side, meaning black has sente
and if white ignores instead...
$$Bc Move 9... P: B-0, W-0... C: B-8(9) W-10(7)
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bc Move 9... P: B-0, W-0... C: B-8(9) W-10(7)a and b are miai
another reason i like the move at p12 is it helps top right corner while putting pressure on the white group
and as for q8 it's probably something i save later depending on how the board develops
Re: Big Brother Malkovich #3
Posted: Thu Feb 10, 2011 8:19 pm
by jts
Re: Big Brother Malkovich #3
Posted: Thu Feb 10, 2011 9:48 pm
by Shaddy
Re: Big Brother Malkovich #3
Posted: Fri Feb 11, 2011 10:16 am
by Violence
Just so you guys know, you're not allowed to say anything from stronger to weaker players. The weaker players are allowed to say things to stronger players, but are not allowed to read their comments. The stronger players can't say anything back down.
if I was black. Then I'd reply with either a or b, not sure yet.
(and "2" into 
, etc.)
is strong. But I could just end up provoking moves like s5 or q10 that solidify white. Maybe I should play q10 myself? I don't think that's the right approach; you attack weak stones at a distance. But maybe in this context r12 is the weak stone, and it needs some help pronto.