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109. Loons vs. Kirby

https://lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?t=3534

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Re: 109. Loons vs. Kirby

Posted: Wed Apr 06, 2011 4:30 pm
by Loons
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm36 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . 1 O O X X O . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . X O X X O . O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I will not directly save those two stones. Only if Kirby makes them important. If kirby cuts I'll press him to the second line / ask for a ponnuki here. If he responds less aggressively, I'll make shape with my stones and then pressure the group he does not protect.


I marked my second-to-last post unhidden. It's no longer relevant at all (after a little ninja edit!) and might be passingly interesting. It shows common ending variations of this joseki.

Re: 109. Loons vs. Kirby

Posted: Wed Apr 06, 2011 4:40 pm
by Kirby
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm36 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . 2 O O O X X O . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . X O X X O . O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I feel like this is too passive:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm36 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . O O O X X O . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . . . B X O X X O . O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


What do you guys think?

Re: 109. Loons vs. Kirby

Posted: Wed Apr 06, 2011 4:41 pm
by Kirby
Interesting... And nice to know that I've deviated from joseki! :tmbup:

Re: 109. Loons vs. Kirby

Posted: Wed Apr 06, 2011 6:39 pm
by Loons
Your extension was officially "an idea", but not the common one.

Hmm-hm-hmmmm, how to make shape. I'd love to lean here somehow and counterpincer black's right-hand group still. Not sure quite how lean-able this bottom group is. He has to directly fix his double hane after I play shape move #1, but then I am obliged to probably play shape move #2, both of which are currently mysteries to me.

Re: 109. Loons vs. Kirby

Posted: Wed Apr 06, 2011 7:36 pm
by Shaddy
After bottom right is settled
WHAT IS GOING ON THERE. I firmly disagree with the notion that that is joseki: White must certainly cut on the second line.

Re: 109. Loons vs. Kirby

Posted: Wed Apr 06, 2011 8:44 pm
by Loons
I was thinking of forcing black to fix M3, but playing M3 ( , N2, L3) directly is tempting. I'll see if I can solve it for a good white result.

Re: 109. Loons vs. Kirby

Posted: Wed Apr 06, 2011 11:10 pm
by Loons
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm36 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . 3 . . . O O X . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . X O O O X X O . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . X O X X O . O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Hah, I was getting carried away. I'll make a thick shape. He'll defend a side, I'll play on top and then the undefended side.

Re: 109. Loons vs. Kirby

Posted: Thu Apr 07, 2011 4:39 am
by Kirby
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm36 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . O . . . O O X . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . X O O O X X O . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . . 4 . X O X X O . O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


This move leaves some aji in my shape, but I like it because I can play at 'a' next if he doesn't:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm36 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . a O . . . O O X . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . X O O O X X O . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . . X . X O X X O . O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Furthermore, if he plays at 'a' next, there is some aji in his shape, too.

Re: 109. Loons vs. Kirby

Posted: Thu Apr 07, 2011 5:41 am
by Loons
I was very ready to play N6 after black M3 or L4. M3 had a little little eyespace, I guess. Anyway I'm pretty sure in this shape you ALWAYS take the atari and then play the move you were going to play already. Is there a proverb about that?

I was going to sleep on it, but I think the moves have enough good feeling that I don't need to.

PS; If you're idly playing through the moves on your goban at home, place 42 with kiai.

PPS; Mic and Puppycakes, have a good game. (Making a redundant post with Ed's felt a little slow.)


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm36 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . 7 . . . . X . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . O . . . O O X . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , 5 X O O O X X O . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . . X 6 X O X X O . O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Settled enough, Shaddy ?

Re: 109. Loons vs. Kirby

Posted: Thu Apr 07, 2011 7:31 am
by Kirby
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm36 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . 7 . . . . X . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . O . . . O O X . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . 8 5 X O O O X X O . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . . X 6 X O X X O . O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


My "style" would normally dictate that I tenuki because, well, I like sente.

But I think that's a weakness I have in my style. This move seems slow, but I feel it's important.

Magicwand says that I will lose the flow if I expose my weakness. Well, then... Let's play solidly.

Plus, I can get a ponnuki if he ignores.

Re: 109. Loons vs. Kirby

Posted: Thu Apr 07, 2011 1:16 pm
by Loons
90% sure I'm going to connect. However, taking inspiration from Kirby, I'm going to force myself to take a day to think about the board.

*Kikashi - that free atari was kikashi.

Edit; unhidden. (Very likely connecting an atari is not exactly a special strategy).

Re: 109. Loons vs. Kirby

Posted: Thu Apr 07, 2011 9:55 pm
by Shaddy
Yeah, you guys can look at my hidden now.

Re: 109. Loons vs. Kirby

Posted: Thu Apr 07, 2011 10:37 pm
by Loons
Hm, I don't know what to say. I believe this to be fairly established joseki - my reference is an informally compiled SGF of some joseki I know. Heh. Really though, it's totes legit.

As I have it recorded, the joseki;
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ +---------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . 9 . . . .
$$ | . . 0 1 5 8 7 . . .
$$ | . . . a 4 6 b . . ,
$$ | . . 2 . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . 3 . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . , . . . . . ,[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm11
$$ +---------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . 8 6 . 7 X . . . .
$$ | 0 5 O X X O X . . .
$$ | . 4 3 1 O O . . . ,
$$ | . 9 O 2 . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . X . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . , . . . . . ,[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm21 Exchange is even, tilted a little in black's favour (very thick)
$$ +---------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . O O . X X . . . .
$$ | O . O X X O X . . .
$$ | . O X X O O 3 . . ,
$$ | . X O O 1 4 . . . .
$$ | . . 6 . 5 . 7 . . .
$$ | . . 2 . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . X . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . , . . . . . ,[/go]


In practice many equivalent moves are interchangable.
Our move order allowed for me to make the following variation, if I wanted;
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 X X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 3 2 O O . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O 4 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


Edit: Hm, just repeating myself isn't really a compelling argument. I'll search for a pro game with it. Hmm, my rather meagre database never turns this up exactly, but some slight variations. Anyone with one of those big databases get a good hit?

A more useful edit: Where exactly does white cut on the second line? What is unjoseki-y? You mean the game result is too good for black ?

Posted: Fri Apr 08, 2011 3:16 am
by EdLee
Loons, Shaddy, Kirby,
Loons wrote:Anyone with one of those big databases get a good hit?
The lower right corner up to :w32: happened in at least 10 pro games, but :b33: nobi got zero match out of 50,744 games.

Re: 109. Loons vs. Kirby

Posted: Fri Apr 08, 2011 5:41 am
by Kirby
EdLee wrote:Loons, Shaddy, Kirby,
Loons wrote:Anyone with one of those big databases get a good hit?
The lower right corner up to :w32: happened in at least 10 pro games, but :b33: nobi got zero match out of 50,744 games.


Awesome... Deviation ftw!
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