ethanb wrote:EDIT: I read lamentation above about the new combat damage system resolving as instants... wasn't it always like that? That's why my Atog deck even worked, as instant effects resolve in reverse order - otherwise it would die before you could pump it up.
Or am I misreading, and rather than "resolve damage as instant effect" I should be understanding that now you "resolve damage INSTANTLY" (as interrupt, I guess) which would mean... a heck of a lot of strategy goes out the window, yeah? No reason even to have direct damage be instants at all in that case, since your Lightning Bolt or Tim will never hit anything before it's done its duty.
The main change recently is that combat damage no longer uses the stack; so you can no longer block, put damage on the stack, and then sacrifice the blocker to do something else and still have it deal its damage.
Re: MTG?
Posted: Sun Jun 12, 2011 5:02 pm
by ethanb
Abydos1 wrote:
ethanb wrote:EDIT: I read lamentation above about the new combat damage system resolving as instants... wasn't it always like that? That's why my Atog deck even worked, as instant effects resolve in reverse order - otherwise it would die before you could pump it up.
Or am I misreading, and rather than "resolve damage as instant effect" I should be understanding that now you "resolve damage INSTANTLY" (as interrupt, I guess) which would mean... a heck of a lot of strategy goes out the window, yeah? No reason even to have direct damage be instants at all in that case, since your Lightning Bolt or Tim will never hit anything before it's done its duty.
The main change recently is that combat damage no longer uses the stack; so you can no longer block, put damage on the stack, and then sacrifice the blocker to do something else and still have it deal its damage.
Oh, ok. Weird, I always assumed that sac-ed creatures didn't do combat damage anyway... so doesn't actually hurt my Atog deck's intended strategy anyway.
Clarification: attack with, say, 2 Atogs and 4 Ornithopters or other tiny things. (bonus if the artifact that allows you to sac any tapped creature for 3 instant damage is in play... Rod of Ruin?) Is an Atog unblocked? sac all the ornithopters to it. Is an ornithopter unblocked? Sweet, it was a suicide bomber (Goblin Grenade for 5 damage). Make adjustments as you go so none of the Atogs die too early and it works fairly well.
Re: MTG?
Posted: Tue Jun 14, 2011 3:04 pm
by Violence
You don't actually need to swing with a creature to deal damage with Goblin Grenade, but... the creature you sacrifice must be a Goblin, so unless it's a Tuktuk the Returned token, I don't know of many things that you can sac to both Atog and Goblin Grenade.
I believe Atog Affinity is still a strong deck in Pauper(the format where you can only use commons)
Sample List:
Main Deck 60 cards
4 Great Furnace 4 Seat of the Synod 4 Tree of Tales 4 Vault of Whispers -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 16 lands
4 Atog 4 Carapace Forger 4 Disciple of the Vault 4 Frogmite 4 Myr Enforcer -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 20 creatures
On a sidenote, Goblin Grenade is being reprinted in Magic 2012 Core Set, and this will be the first time I've ever played with it. Is it really as insane as people say it is?
Volcanic Island from Beta is around 900 dollars.
Lord of the Pit from unlimited is like 7 dollars.
Respect your dual lands!
Funny how times change, huh? We're approaching the end of a two year time period where Lightning Bolt was reprinted and legal in Type 2. What a card. No one's really complained about it either, because the power level of creatures has been boosted accordingly to deal with the sudden amazing increase in removal ability.
If you're interested in picking up some cheap cards that would boost the effectiveness of your Atog deck, I'd recommend Myr Sire(10 cents), Ichor Wellspring(10 cents), and Perilous Myr(10 cents).
Re: MTG?
Posted: Tue Jun 14, 2011 5:43 pm
by Abydos1
Violence wrote:You don't actually need to swing with a creature to deal damage with Goblin Grenade, but... the creature you sacrifice must be a Goblin, so unless it's a Tuktuk the Returned token, I don't know of many things that you can sac to both Atog and Goblin Grenade.
Violence wrote:You don't actually need to swing with a creature to deal damage with Goblin Grenade, but... the creature you sacrifice must be a Goblin, so unless it's a Tuktuk the Returned token, I don't know of many things that you can sac to both Atog and Goblin Grenade.
Maybe I had some goblin token generating somethings from Fallen Empires in the deck as well? This was a long time ago, so maybe I'm mixing it up with a red/green deck I had at one point that used Grenades. I guess I could always look for it and find out.
Re: MTG?
Posted: Wed Jun 15, 2011 5:43 am
by Kirby
Violence wrote:... Sample List:
Main Deck 60 cards
4 Great Furnace 4 Seat of the Synod 4 Tree of Tales 4 Vault of Whispers -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 16 lands
4 Atog 4 Carapace Forger 4 Disciple of the Vault 4 Frogmite 4 Myr Enforcer -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 20 creatures
Do you find 16 lands to be enough? I've been advised to use around 24 lands for a 60 card deck.
Re: MTG?
Posted: Wed Jun 15, 2011 8:48 am
by Violence
Oooh, you've been advised to run 24? That's a good suggestion, most likely made by someone who plays at a decent level regularly. This deck is quite the exception. It revolves around a power word called Affinity, where cards, usually artifacts, have their cost lowered by 1 for every artifact you control, and all the lands are artifact lands. In essense, for most of the creatures in this deck, each land is worth 2 mana, essentially, and each creature is worth 1 mana. The creatures this doesn't apply to have a mana cost of 1, in the case of disciple of the vault, or 2, in the case of Atog and Carapace forger.
The rest of the artifacts are very cheap, either costing 1 or 2. Effectively, this deck can run off of 2 lands very easily, so 16 lands is just fine.
This is a VERY extreme case, though, and is not recommended for anything type 2 legal. Even the fastest, lowest curve deck in standard currently runs 18-19 lands.
Re: MTG?
Posted: Thu Jun 16, 2011 2:17 pm
by Kirby
So I'm definitely a noob in deck building, but I thought I'd ask for some critique of a deck I've been working on. Since I don't have many cards, I probably can't swap out cards that I have here with precise substitutes, but if anyone has any general suggestions, or suggestions on certain types of cards, I'd appreciate it (eg. You should have more artifacts, or you should have a creature that does this, etc.).
Current deck:
Instants, Enchantments, and sourceries: * 1 Mystical Tutor (traded with a friend; it's an old card that I can't use in some tournaments. It's an instant that lets you search for instant, interrupt, mana, or sourcery, reveal it, and then put it on top of your library)
* 4 Cancel (Instant counter target spell)
* 2 Mind Control (Enchantment to let you control enchanted creature)
* 1 Corrupted Conscience (Enchantment to let you control enchanted creature + gives it infect)
* 2 duress (sourcery - target opponent reveals hand. choose noncreature, nonland. player discards that cardd)
* 2 ice cage (enchantment - enchanted creature can't attack or block, and its activated abilities can't be activated. when creature becomes target of spell or ability destroy ice cage)
non-creature artifacts & artifact equipment:
* 1 pristine talisman (tap to add 1 colorless mana. gain 1 life) * 1 bladed pinions (equipped creature has flying and first strike) * 2 fireshrieker (equipped gets double strike)
artifact creatures: * 1 palladium myr (2/2 tap to add 2 colorless to mana) * 1 darksteel myr (0/1 indestructable) * 1 vector asp (1/1. pay 1 black mana to get infect until end of turn) * 1 phyrexian juggernaut (5/5 infect. attacks every turn if able - kind of expensive - costs 6 colorless)
regular creatures: * 3 wall of frost (0/7 defender - if blocks creature that creature doesn't untap next turn) * 2 plated seastrider (1/4 creature)
regular flying: * 1 cloud elemental (2/3 flying, but can only block flying) * 1 guard gomazoa (1/3 flying, prevent all combat damage that would be dealt to guard gomazoa) * 1 cadaver imp (1/1 flying, when enters battlefield, may return target creature from graveyard to my hand) * 2 liliana's specter (2/1 flying, when enters battlefield, each opponent discards a card)
creatures I found interesting: * 2 blood seeker (1/1; whenever creature enters battlefield under opponent's control, you may have that player lose one life) * 2 perilous myr (1/1; when put into graveyard from battlefield, deals 2 damage to target creature or player) * 2 phylactery lich (5/5; when put into battlefield, put phylactery counter on an artifact i control. it's indestructable. when i control no permanents with phylactery counters on them, sacrifice phylactery lich. This card seems interesting to me also because of its cost - 3 black mana for a 5/5 creature)
mana: * 12 black * 16 blue
Notes: I went over 60 cards, but I'm willing to trim things down if suggested. I calculated the mana by taking 24/60, and multiplying it by the total number of cards that I have. Then, I added up the number of black mana costs on all of my cards with the number of blue mana costs on all of my cards (ignoring colorless mana) to determine the ratio of black to blue mana that I needed. I rounded the result, and that's how I came up with the ratio of black to blue cards.
If anybody has any critique for me, please feel free to let me know (eg. you need more or less of X).
Re: MTG?
Posted: Thu Jun 16, 2011 2:38 pm
by Violence
Post up other Blue, Black, and Artifact cards you have.
Snap, man, Mystical Tutor? It's at least 5 dollars, and a huge beating. It was banned recently in Legacy for being too amazing.
Ice Cage is one of your worst cards. If your opponent runs: Equipment Artifacts, Enchantments, or harmless targeting abilities, it can just end up being a card that did nothing.
Pinions and Shrieker are nice equipments.
I don't like your infect package, except for maybe Phyrexian Juggernaut(because it wins on its own and isn't reliant on other cards to do its dirty work).
I would remove Vector Asp, Scourge Servant and Chained Throatseeker(whoa, you have a chained throatseeker... that means you have New Phyrexia cards).
Blood Seeker is iffy, and I wouldn't play Phylich in this deck because you don't run enough artifacts for him, along with the fact that his mana cost is hard to actually pay in this deck.
Perilous Myr is sweet, so is wall of frost... not a huge fan of Plated Seastrider though.
So yeah, I'd either remove 9 cards counting Blood Seekers, or 7 cards, keeping the Blood Seekers. Removing 7 really trims the fat and lets you come down to 25 lands, which is decent.
I have a feeling that you aren't playing all of your optimal cards though, what other stuff you got?
It feels like you're missing something to draw cards with.
Oh, and are you playing primarily 1v1s, or multiplayer?
Re: MTG?
Posted: Thu Jun 16, 2011 3:11 pm
by shapenaji
Interestingly, the ratio 24/60 breaks if you get much larger than 60... you can't have the same probability of a "playable hand" (somewhere between 2 and 5 land) for, say a deck of 10000 cards, as with 60 cards, no matter how many land you put in. (Your odds of a playable hand in a 60 card deck max out at ~77%, as the deck gets larger, your ideal keeping hand percentage converges to 74.9% )
Re: MTG?
Posted: Thu Jun 16, 2011 3:26 pm
by Violence
What's your favorite card to draft in New Phyrex, shapenaji? A card you just can't pass.
Besides the obvious Dismember, I can't get enough of Thundering Tanadon. Thing's a BEATING.
Re: MTG?
Posted: Thu Jun 16, 2011 3:45 pm
by shapenaji
Tezzeret's Gambit, frikkin love that card.
Mindculling is up there too... just wins games.
Mostly I'm in love with the return of strong blue tech.
EDIT: (I'd also say shrine of loyal legions, except I haven't seen it once in draft yet)
Re: MTG?
Posted: Thu Jun 16, 2011 3:53 pm
by Violence
Bah, blue shmoo. I think the only blue card I'd first pick is Viral Drake. Won three drafts with that guy, he's just too sick.
I'm happy about all the strong midrange creatures, like Slash Panther, Porcelain Legionaire and Mortis Dogs.
Mortis Dogs is nuts. Turn 5-6, I had a Mortis Dogs with Bladed Pinions and a Culling Dais, with Untamed Might in hand. BIG GAME.
Mindculling usually goes late. Do you think the format's slowed down enough to play it? I feel like midrange is the answer now.
Re: MTG?
Posted: Thu Jun 16, 2011 3:58 pm
by shapenaji
The thing is, I have so many great answers to slow games now,
won a draft on tuesday with blue/black/green-splash infect
Blue can draw out the game forever. The Black is important, there are so many removal options, but the blue just makes everything flow.
Viral drake is great, I've won a number with that one too.
Re: MTG?
Posted: Thu Jun 16, 2011 3:59 pm
by Kirby
Violence wrote:Post up other Blue, Black, and Artifact cards you have.
... I have a feeling that you aren't playing all of your optimal cards though, what other stuff you got?
It feels like you're missing something to draw cards with.
Oh, and are you playing primarily 1v1s, or multiplayer?
Thanks a lot for the feedback. I play mostly multiplayer. There are usually 4 or 5 of us. Occasionally we will do teams with a shared battlefield, but usually we play for ourselves (me vs. the other 4).
I'll get back to you on some of the other cards I have - I do know that I have some skry cards (skry 4, draw 2). I may have some others for drawing cards. I'll have to check.
By the way, I do appreciate the critique, but if I let you know the other cards I have, I don't want you to totally build my deck. That would take some of the fun out of it.
But I am glad to see what you guys think works and doesn't.
One thing I am curious about is why you don't like the infect cards. I tried to get all of the blue/black infects that I had to put into the deck, because the people I play with sometimes have crazy life cards that keep giving them life. The only way I've won so far is by poison (though, that time it was 1 vs. 1).
