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117. levanez (3k) vs. Banaan (1k)

https://lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?t=3745

Page 4 of 4

Re: 117. levanez (3k) vs. Banaan (1k)

Posted: Tue May 03, 2011 2:47 am
by Banaan
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm25 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O O X . O . . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X . X O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X X O . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Plan of attack: Settle on the right (in sente, must me possible :P), and invade the bottom!

Re: 117. levanez (3k) vs. Banaan (1k)

Posted: Tue May 03, 2011 5:43 am
by levanez
Black caps.


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm25 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O O X . O . . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X . X O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X X O . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . 7 . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I want to use this capping move to work my way into the center, which would be useful if white plans to develop some kind of moyo there, or if he invades the lower side and fighting broke out. If white's answer to the cap somehow makes the situation complicated (a cut, for example), it'd still be preferable than giving him a direct chance to invade the bottom, since a normal answer for black here almost always end in gote.

Re: 117. levanez (3k) vs. Banaan (1k)

Posted: Tue May 03, 2011 6:48 am
by Banaan
White defends!

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm25 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O O X . O . . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X . X O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X X O . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . X . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Levanez, I dont mind if your move takes longer than a day. I have a lot of time this week (only studying this week), so thats whymy moves are pretty fast.


Didnt expect that move at all, and I dont really know the reasoning behind it. Maybe he's aiming to cut at f18 later, but that doesnt worry me that much. Even if it did, its too slow to protect now w.

Ill just protect my weakness, and invade the bottom after. Also, the corner is still open ^^

I was also thinking about sliding into the corner, but then b has this move:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm25 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O O X . O . . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X . X O . . . . . , . . . . . X . 8 . |
$$ | . X X O . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . X . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Not a good result, considering I'm going to invade the bottom in a couple of moves ^^

Re: 117. levanez (3k) vs. Banaan (1k)

Posted: Wed May 04, 2011 8:40 am
by levanez
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm25 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O O X . O . . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X . X O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X X O . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . X . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . 9 . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I feel like this is where I need to start covering the weakness in the bottom and make it harder for white to invade. I'm willing to give the upper corner to white should he choose to take it. Btw a lot of my moves at this stage are based on feeling and not sound analysis, since there are a lot of possibilities everywhere. I tried laying out various positions on the board but then just started following endless variations which may or may not happen.

Re: 117. levanez (3k) vs. Banaan (1k)

Posted: Wed May 04, 2011 11:33 am
by Banaan
White takes sansan!

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm33 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O O X . O . . O . . . . . 2 . . |
$$ | X . X O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X X O . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . X . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . X . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


hmm wouldnt have guessed that move. Black looks a bit overconcentrated there now. and still, a weakness at h3 remains. And also the bottom right corner is not completely safe.

Anyway, my plan of attack now:
- Attack blacks top right, sansan is the keypoint for that (taking blacks base)
- Black runs, I chase and get strong in the center
- Invade the bottom!

Im a bit concerned about the weakness at f18, but that will be fine. Its only 2 versus a lot!

Re: 117. levanez (3k) vs. Banaan (1k)

Posted: Wed May 04, 2011 12:11 pm
by levanez
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm33 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O O X . O . . O . . . . 3 O . . |
$$ | X . X O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X X O . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . X . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . X . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I expected that. Blocking on this side is better, since white must connect at R15, which gives me time to extend to somewhere on the top.

Re: 117. levanez (3k) vs. Banaan (1k)

Posted: Wed May 04, 2011 12:16 pm
by Banaan
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm33 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O O X . O . . O . . . . X O . . |
$$ | X . X O . . . . . , . . . . . X 4 . . |
$$ | . X X O . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . X . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . X . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Speaks for itself I guess. The spoiler is to let him think I have a very ingenious plan. I wish i had...

Re: 117. levanez (3k) vs. Banaan (1k)

Posted: Wed May 04, 2011 2:08 pm
by Mnemonic
I'm guessing black 33 is part of the "first Malkovich game" syndrome. I found it very hard to play a consistent game the first time I played a correspondence game, especially with Malkovich games where you can talk yourself into playing a certain move.

Re: 117. levanez (3k) vs. Banaan (1k)

Posted: Wed May 04, 2011 3:04 pm
by levanez
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm33 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O O X . O . . O . . . . X O . . |
$$ | X . X O . . . . . , . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . X X O . X . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . X . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . X . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


This is where white (should) connect(s). Next I plan to cap white's L17:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm33 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O O X . O . . O . . . . X O . . |
$$ | X . X O . . . . . , . . b . . X O . . |
$$ | . X X O . X . . . c 7 a . . . 5 6 . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . X . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . X . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I think (a) and (b) are white's likeliest responses, and I've worked some rather good continuations. I still need to work on (c), maybe we'll both make a box on either side. White may also choose to tenuki and invade the bottom right away, which will become another fight for sente for me.

Re: 117. levanez (3k) vs. Banaan (1k)

Posted: Wed May 04, 2011 3:48 pm
by Banaan
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm33 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O O X . O . . O . . . . X O . . |
$$ | X . X O . . . . . , . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . X X O . X . . . . . . . . . X 6 . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . X . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . X . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Posted: Wed May 04, 2011 3:57 pm
by EdLee
Hidden until upper right 1/4 of the board completely settled,
The :bc: group seems quite inefficient, with :bt: at a funny place.
If W gets something like (a), the whole black group can even become a target:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm33
$$ ----------------------------------------
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O O X . O . . O . . . . B O . . |
$$ | X . X O . . . . . , . . . a . B O . . |
$$ | . X X O . X . . . . . . . . . B 6 . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . Y . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . X . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]

Re: 117. levanez (3k) vs. Banaan (1k)

Posted: Thu May 05, 2011 12:18 pm
by levanez
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm33 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O O X . O . . O . . . . X O . . |
$$ | X . X O . . . . . , . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . X X O . X . . . . 7 . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . X . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . X . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Since my first stone on the top right corner is 4-4, the best use I can get out of it is to erase any potential white has in the center. Giving white the upper left side is acceptable since the balance of territory seems equal to me at this point. There are 2 weaknesses on the bottom, H4 and S4, but white can only take advantage of one of them, and either way I can solidify or even gain additional territory on the sides.

Posted: Thu May 05, 2011 4:04 pm
by EdLee
Hidden until the end-game, or the top half of the board settled, whichever is earlier:
levanez wrote:Since my first stone on the top right corner is 4-4, the best use I can get out of it is to erase any potential white has in the center.
Is :w1: severe? B is not aware :bc: is already heavy and maybe in some trouble:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O O X . O . . O . . . . B O . . |
$$ | X . X O . . . . . , . . . . . B O . . |
$$ | . X X O . X . . . . X . 1 . . B O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . B . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

Re: 117. levanez (3k) vs. Banaan (1k)

Posted: Fri May 06, 2011 10:31 am
by Banaan
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm33 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O O X . O . . O . . . . X O . . |
$$ | X . X O . . . . . , . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . X X O . X . . . . X 8 . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . X . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . X . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I know! I shouldnt touch stones! I just couldnt find a better move :p I thought of a couple of other ones (maybe some kind of cap-thing like l13 or even n14), but that loos a bit mild, and theres still a lot of aji in the cut at f18. I dont want to push him there.
So, this is my move! I think I can cut him.
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