21st Century Dictionary of Basic Joseki

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John Fairbairn
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Re: 21st Century Dictionary of Basic Joseki

Post by John Fairbairn »

I assume this is deliberately done by Kiseido to enable them to continue selling the old outdated edition?


We know you like to think of yourself as the self-appointed resident cynic on L19, but how do they sell a supposedly out-of-print and heavily pirated book?
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Re: 21st Century Dictionary of Basic Joseki

Post by CardiffGo »

Go accommodates many playing styles - that is one of its beauties. The talk appears to mandate that dan players must know dozens or hundreds of joseki. Yet joseki is just one component of games. Does a limited knowledge of joseki prevent one from becoming a dan player?

If you play with a good feel for shape, but simply do not have the ability to learn and remember many joseki, you may prevail over those who can remember joseki, any loss of momentum in the joseki more than made up by superior play beyond knowledge driven play.

In essence, there are many ways to skin a cat - many ways and styles of playing Go.
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Re: 21st Century Dictionary of Basic Joseki

Post by hyperpape »

Helel wrote:
DeaconJohn wrote:Yes, and, Ishida's edition also diagrams the fuseki where the joseki are used, gives further analysis of the joseki in the context of the those games, and gives further variations of the joseki relevant to the choice and use of the joseki in those games. Hopefully a reviewer of the Takao edition will comment on the relation between the two editions.


I assume this is deliberately done by Kiseido to enable them to continue selling the old outdated edition? :sad:
My guess, which still is complete speculation, is that it represents the influence of databases.
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Re: 21st Century Dictionary of Basic Joseki

Post by ez4u »

Helel wrote:
I assume this is deliberately done by Kiseido to enable them to continue selling the old outdated edition? :sad:


Does this mean that you assume the references exist in the Japanese original but were not included in the translation in order to continue to sell the original? This would be trivial to test. :blackeye:
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Re: 21st Century Dictionary of Basic Joseki

Post by PeterHB »

hyperpape wrote: My guess, which still is complete speculation, is that it represents the influence of databases.


My guess / unsubstantiated opinion is that hyperpape is right. Skipping the game examples in the Takao Shinji update seems to be a good decision now that it is easier for people to do their own database search. I think it also improves the readability of the book, so its a positive move.
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Post by EdLee »

DeaconJohn wrote:Most of the positional evaluation has been copied word for word from the previous edition.
Could you use Chapter 1 from both editions (Ishida pages 2-15; Takao pages 2-10) to illustrate this?
I'm not sure I'm seeing what you meant. :study:
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Re: 21st Century Dictionary of Basic Joseki

Post by gaius »

DeaconJohn wrote:It seems to me that most of the serious 1k+ players on KGS make extensive use of the game data bases (like gobase.com) to study joseki.

Many of them do, but not nearly all. I personally use that kind of database more for entertainment than for serious study.

DeaconJohn wrote:There are also more advanced and more complete joseki dictionaries than the Ishida/Takao dictionary that stand between the Ishida/Takao dictionary and the study of joseki through the study of their use in pro games.

Really? Could you give me an example? I've never heard of any other dictionary that is even nearly as comprehensive as Ishida, be it in English or some other language.

DeaconJohn wrote:It seems logical to me that the importance of the Ishida/Takao dictionary to the study of joseki would diminish once one is in the KGS dan level.

As a KGS 1 dan, I'd say this is definitely not true! In fact, I would say that studying Ishida/Takao before reaching KGS dan level is not very efficient. Better study tesuji and tsumego.

DeaconJohn wrote:Like the title says these are "Basic Joseki". Yes, some, though my no means most, are a little scary to play in my games. But, they are easy to understand when working through them in the book, so, I play them every chance I get. So far, this has both helped me make progress in the ranking system, and it has helped me win games.

Mechanically playing a joseki at every chance you get is a terrible idea and shows that you do not understand joseki at all. You have to play the move that fits the whole board, whether or not that happens to be the one variation that you memorised. In my experience, tesuji and tsumego is much more helpful than joseki study at kyu level.

That said, the best of luck in regaining your strength! Cool that you're still enjoying go after such a setback, major respect from me :tmbup: .
My name is Gijs, from Utrecht, NL.

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Re: 21st Century Dictionary of Basic Joseki

Post by Javaness2 »

If you know 350 joseki and you're only 1kyu, I wonder what's gone wrong with your game. YY syndrome?

DeaconJohn wrote:
The 1k KGS player "emerus" seems to know a lot of joseki. Emerus is the coach for the 1-5k players in the KGS room called "The Study Room". I go to him with my joseki questions and have been extremely impressed with the breadth of his knowledge. The Study Room manager, revtaro, tells me that emerus knows over 350 joseki. I'll bet it is a lot more than that. (I am talking about "fully fledged" joseki here. And, I am not counting the variations you have to know to really know the joseki.)
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Re: 21st Century Dictionary of Basic Joseki

Post by Cassandra »

John Fairbairn wrote:
Well I think the diagram errors in Go books are one of the things which really mark them down as amateur hobbyist works.

My experience is that amateur hobbyists are the ones who really take care, because they love the subject.

And amateurs can spend enough time on the subject.

That does not make them immune from mistakes, of course, but I think they make fewer mistakes than the pros.

Perhaps amateurs' mistakes are more "reversible" than professionals' mistakes. May be that an incorrect amateur sequence leads to the same result as a correct professional one, because a mistake with black is compensated for by another mistake with white.
Usually professionals' mistakes are non-reversible.
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Re: 21st Century Dictionary of Basic Joseki

Post by jts »

Javaness2 wrote:If you know 350 joseki and you're only 1kyu, I wonder what's gone wrong with your game. YY syndrome?


How do chromosomal abnormalities lead to joseki obsession?
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Post by EdLee »

The 1k KGS player... seems to know ... over 350 joseki.
I'll bet it is a lot more than that. (I am talking about "fully fledged" joseki here.
And, I am not counting the variations you have to know to really know the joseki.)
(My emphases.)
So he does not really know them. :batman:
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Re: 21st Century Dictionary of Basic Joseki

Post by DeaconJohn »

jts wrote:How do chromosomal abnormalities lead to joseki obsession?


Interesting question. Has two meanings, the literal meaning and the intended meaning.

Reflections on the Intended Meaning.

Probably not good to study Go too much as long as your rank is shooting up. Just play. And learn from reviewing your own games and watching what your opponents do.

Eventually, though, many players "plateau" before they reach 3d. For such players, study helps. Tseumengo first, of course, but everything else too.

Study of joseki is good because it gives "tried and true" examples of things like shape and various tseuji and thinckness and sabaki and invasions and L&D, etc. I am including corner enclosure invasions and side joseki here. The proverb "joseki are for forgetting" is a good thing to remember, but, it is not always true. Every now and then a joseki has a move in it that you just want to memorize.

Study of joseki is also good because it helps you play your joseki better in games. One could argue that this is, or should be, a secondary purpose. I have seen reasons given for both sides of this argument.

Reflections on the Literal Meaning.

Joseki can be studied because they are interesting in themselves, not primarily because you hope they will help you get stonger.

About chromosones, personally I like to see deeply into things so that I can feel that I really understand them. It is quite possible because my chromosones, genes, genetic material, whatever, is different from others. It is possible that my tendency towards OCD is genetically inherited too. If so, I prefer to think of the difference as just part of the way we are all different from each other, not as an abnormality.

No offense taken, though, Javaness2. In fact, I was happy to answer your post because I like the KGS player Javaness a lot and you have a similar name.
Last edited by DeaconJohn on Mon Sep 26, 2011 8:14 pm, edited 5 times in total.
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Re: 21st Century Dictionary of Basic Joseki

Post by DeaconJohn »

Helel wrote:
DeaconJohn wrote:I knew most of the joseki in the Ishida edition when I was 1d AGA in 1991.

This is interesting! Am I right in concluding that this mirrors a real difference in the study methods of low dan players over the last 20 years?


Absolutely! There was very little English language Go literature back them. Ishida was one of the best books available. It was not at all uncommon for a 1d player to have studied, or at least be familiar with, every Go book published in the English language. I had about 5 fully commented professional games available to me. They were my second most valuable study resource. I also learned a lot by watching what my opponents were doing when they were stronger than me. Whether or not this is "study" is hard to say, but, it helped me more than any other single thing.

As I mentioned, many players at the 4d level had so completely exhausted the English literature that they had to turn to the Japanese Go journals. In one game I met a joseki variation that had only been published a few months earlier in a Japanese journal. I played my side of the joseki correctly in the local context, even though I had never seen it before, but misunderstood the significance in the global context and so lost the game. The journal article explained the global significance. (The article was translated into English several months later; that was how I found out what had happened.)

Another huge difference was that it was vastly more difficult to get to play Go with other people back then. A greater emphasis on study was required for those who wanted to improve. I attended every club meeting in the Washington DC area within 1/2 hour of my house and still could only get 3-4 games a week. I got a game every day at work, but, those were weaker players. Now I average at least 2-3 game a day!

The biggest difference was that there was no internet, no game database, at least not any that I knew of. DrStraw, one of the best American p-layers in Virginia, arguably the best at least for a while, says that he made huge progress by playing against himself.

On KGS, it is sometimes possible get free reviews of your games by stronger players, and free teaching games from stronger players. (For example in the KGS Teaching Ladder, in The Study Room, and in many other rooms.) There was nothing even close to this.

Today, there are many excellent teachers, like Kaz and Breakfast (Alexander Dinertchen) who often give lectures for a small fee (the price of admission to the KGS+ club). There was not enough interest in America to support the few Asian Go professionals who tried (and failed) to make a living teaching Go in this country.

For reviewing your own games, there was nothing like the sgf files and the CGoban KGS sgf editor. Often you had to record your own games, or remember them. Remembering them turned out to be more efficient. This was good for fuseki study, but not very helpful for complicated middle game fighting - the crux of the game. It was to difficult to get the complex positions exactly right from memory, at least for me.

This gives you some idea. There were many little things that we take for granted today and that were not available in the 1980's and that make a huge difference.
Last edited by DeaconJohn on Mon Sep 26, 2011 7:52 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re:

Post by DeaconJohn »

EdLee wrote:
The 1k KGS player... seems to know ... over 350 joseki.
I'll bet it is a lot more than that. (I am talking about "fully fledged" joseki here.
And, I am not counting the variations you have to know to really know the joseki.)
(My emphases.)
So he does not really know them. :batman:


I apologize for being ambiguous. He "knows" the variations. Not that he has memorized them, but, he can reproduce most of them, find the "trick" to punish or whatever. Yes, he "really knows" them. At least that is my impression. Hope that clarifies what I meant to express.
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Re:

Post by DeaconJohn »

EdLee wrote:
DeaconJohn wrote:Most of the positional evaluation has been copied word for word from the previous edition.
Could you use Chapter 1 from both editions (Ishida pages 2-15; Takao pages 2-10) to illustrate this?
I'm not sure I'm seeing what you meant. :study:


Hmmm, I will comply with your request for some concrete examples if some day time permits me to do that.

To explain what I meant. I have both editions of the dictionary. I opened them both up and started going through them joseki by joseki and word by word. I found a lot of the text from the old edition was "cut and pasted" into the new edition. This was not suprising, and it is not a bad thing.

The preface to the new edition, if I remember correctly, says that many of the diagrams were lifted from the old edition. This is a good thing (imo) because it makes it vastly easier to compare the two editions. Many joseki take more than one diagram. If the diagrams were broken in different places, or if the text said the same thing in a different way, it would be vastly more difficult to compare the two editions.

I was hoping that this exercise would bring my knowledge of joseki up to date. This has happened a little bit, but, not too much. Even though there have been many new "joseki" (perhaps in the broader sense of the word "joseki"), discovered over the last 20-30 years since Ishida's edition, only the most common, most basic, and most well established of them are in this book.

There are three main benefits that I obtain from the exercise of comparing the two editions. First, it helps me review the Ishida joseki that I used to be familiar with. Second, it gives me confidence that (most) of the joseki that I learned from Ishida are the same now as they were then. Third, I understand the joseki better as I work though them again. I know more about shape and tseuji and L&D now than I did in 1991, so I can understand the joseki better now than I could them. (I don't do so well in play because my mind kind of fuzzes out while I am reading out variations.)

Hopefully this clarifies what I was talking about.
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