138. Pancake 4d vs Loons 1d

Loons · Post by **Loons** » Sun Sep 25, 2011 2:30 am

Kombilo is most popular, I think. Oh. Or whatever smartgo is.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm11 $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 7 . O . O . . . X . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Edit: Misread the question. I use kombilo to manage my GoGoD database, just out of interest

pancake · Post by **pancake** » Sun Sep 25, 2011 3:23 am

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm11 $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X . O . O . . . X . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . W . . . . O . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Explanation was in the previous post. I really wonder if I should've jumped now, as Araban said.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm11 $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . b . . . . . . . . . O . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . W . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 1 . O . . . . . X . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . 2 . . . . O . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

It doesn't look like I had to answer like this, but the aji looks to much to expect anything after I play a (b looks almost sente). I think I wouldn't want to play there after all. I still agree that my option f needed more consideration though. It's hard to take every possible move in careful consideration. I guess pros don't have to do that, because they see the sense or nonsense of a move so much easier then someone like me does.

Loons · Post by **Loons** » Sun Sep 25, 2011 3:31 am

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm11 $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X . O . O . . . X . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . O . . . . O . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

But now I'm going to sleep. Good night!

pancake · Post by **pancake** » Mon Sep 26, 2011 1:53 pm

I've had a busy day. I think I know where I want to play, but don't feel like making all the diagrams and explaining why right now. Also want to do a bit more thinking. I'll play tomorrow morning, sorry for the delay!

Loons · Post by **Loons** » Mon Sep 26, 2011 7:24 pm

No worries at all, please play at your own pace.

Pancake's comment suggests he feels there is an obvious move on this board.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm20 $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . b . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . a . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X . O . O . . . X . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . O . . . . O . . . . . c . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

I feel like these are three major moves to think about.

B doesn't seem very good right now.

A aiming at H17 invasion point (not too much) later is definitely a consideration.

Or what about C*- starting staking out an ambitious moyo using his two groups. I quite like C, actually, especially since black may have to live in gote in the bottom right at some point if it becomes sealed in. However, I feel C may be difficult for both players, considering black is a move ahead in invading/reducing the moyo (hurrah for :b5:

?).

A property of white's groups on this board is that nothing is really attackable, while black's stones on the bottom are somewhat thin and his moyo is still extremely fluffy. On the bright side, I can look forward to treating K4 flexibly. I would like to "fix" at C myself actually.

Black would like to cramp top left at some point in future with C12 (I think there is an interesting yose that can be played if black gets C12 and white D18). Black K4-O3 is a flexible extension (considered in a vacuum). R4-O3-Q3 would look like I very defensively secured a large knight's enclosure, which perhaps makes sense in the face of white thickness.

All up I do feel like I had a relatively satisfactory fuseki.

*Or rather somewhere near C. Against C, it seems black attach-on-top may be too easy. I vote white A, 3-3 invasion. Though it may be gote for white...

Post by **Solomon** » Mon Sep 26, 2011 7:40 pm

Loons · Post by **Loons** » Mon Sep 26, 2011 7:46 pm

gaius · Post by **gaius** » Tue Sep 27, 2011 3:01 am

Araban wrote:
How I'd play:
$$Wc
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . O . O . . . X . . . 1 . , X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . O . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X . O . O . . . X . . . 1 . , X . . | $$ | . . O . . . . O . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

that, or:

@pancake: you're Michiel, right? Cool to see you here

pancake · Post by **pancake** » Wed Sep 28, 2011 3:22 am

My instinct wants me to play here, I don't like the look of things if black plays a, it feels like he gets control of the board. Also, gotta love the aji at b.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm1 $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . W . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . b . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X . O . O . . . X . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . O . . . . O . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

The following sequence is 'best for both' according to After Joseki. (1 is a random tenuki)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm1 $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . W . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . 3 X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . 2 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X 5 . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . | $$ | . 6 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X . O . O . . . X . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . O . . . . O . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

If black plays 1 below, his moyo gets kind of intimidating though.. I feel like entering the corner makes it too solid, so maybe I should play at a afterwards.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm1 $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . a . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . W . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X . O . O . . . X . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . O . . . . O . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

If I play at a, this would be a possible continuation, it feels like I have nothing..

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm1 $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 9 . . X . . . . 5 4 . W 1 . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . X . 6 . 2 . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . 7 . 8 . . 3 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X . O . O . . . X . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . O . . . . O . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Ok, maybe I should have a closer look at the corner invasion.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm1 $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . 2 1 . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . X 3 . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . 4 5 . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 7 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X . O . O . . . X . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . O . . . . O . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm1 $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 5 a . . . . . . . . . 2 1 3 . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . 4 . X O . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . X O . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X . O . O . . . X . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . O . . . . O . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

I have about 48 solid points, with komi that's 54.5. But there's almost no way for me to get more.
Black has 15 points, plus whatever is on top. I think he can maken about 8 points more on the bottom later I think. So let's say he should make the top at least 55 - 23 = 32 points to win. I think he will immediately play a, then 24 points on top are already solid territory. Making 32 points should be easy then. I think I have a lost game like this.

So maybe my first move was wrong? Where should I play then?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm1 $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . a . . . . . b . d c . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . Y . . . . . X e . . | $$ | . . . . . f . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Y . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X . O . O . . . X . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . O . . . . O . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Some interesting points are a-f. f feels like I'm only trying to reduce him, while not making anything myself. I think d and e are a bit weird-ish if the marked black stones are that far away, because it's strengthening his 4-4. c is possible, but I think he will take sente and play f. b I dislike because I'm not gaining anything myself. So a remains:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm1 $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . 8 . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X 5 W 2 4 7 6 . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . 1 3 X 9 . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . b . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X . O . O . . . X . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . O . . . . O . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

I can't play 2 at 3, because I don't have the ladder. Neither do I have any good ladderbreakers to play beforehand. If he plays like this, I shouldn't have any problem living. a looks very scary, but he has to come back at b first. I'm not entirely convinced it's good, but I'll go with this. edit: Actually I have NO Idea if this is any better then b or the corner invasion, but I can't seem to find anything I find acceptable

.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm1 $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . W . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X . O . O . . . X . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . O . . . . O . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

@gaius: Yes I am, nice to be here!

pancake · Post by **pancake** » Wed Sep 28, 2011 3:23 am

Sorry for the late response again by the way. It took a day later then I expected. I shouldn't be this busy, but somehow I end up without any time most of the week.

Loons · Post by **Loons** » Wed Sep 28, 2011 4:46 am

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm21 $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . a . X . W . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . c . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . b . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X . O . O . . . X . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . O . . . . O . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Current candidates. I'm not a million percent sure how any of them will continue. I feel like I may be missing moves that focus on building the top right.

Considerations:
1) F17 is sort-of surrounded and wants help.
2) I need to find the best way to develop my top right moyo.

I'm randomly leaning towards b, but I need to work out what white really wants here to know what's going to be good.

ez4u · Post by **ez4u** » Wed Sep 28, 2011 7:17 am

Araban wrote:@pancake:
Nice analysis, but I'm surprised you didn't have this move to your list of candidate moves. Did you consider it?
[Hide]
$$Bcm11
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . W . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm11 $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . W . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Example game:
$$Bcm11 Fu Chong 4p vs. Zhang Wei 5p
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . O . . O . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . 1 . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm11 Fu Chong 4p vs. Zhang Wei 5p $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . O . . O . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . 1 . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

...

Obs:

I think this situation is different than the example game and I think that Araban's play at :b1:

below may induce White to connect to the orphan stone on the bottom side. It is interesting in the game where the stone on H3 makes it less interesting for Black to play on the bottom than in a normal Kobayashi. However, adding a stone at H5 makes it more likely that the K4 stone will be captured if White cuts it off from the bottom right. If Black goes ahead and connects, how much value does H5 retain?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O 3 O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . 4 . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Loons · Post by **Loons** » Wed Sep 28, 2011 3:25 pm

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm21 $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X . O . O . . . X . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . O . . . . O . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

So. So so so. I want to make entering top right worse for white. I have had a somewhat flirtatious relationship with this cap in the past. Here, this move I feel threatens something of a splitting attack if white now enters top right properly. It does allow white to capture F17 if he likes, but- it is just one stone.
A database search affirms all my suggestions are played.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm21 I felt like giving white top in exchange for influence towards the very open and also contested centre was not going to be the best solution. $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 8 . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . O 4 6 . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . 5 1 2 X 7 . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X . O . O . . . X . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . O . . . . O . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm21 I think our board is not going to let me happily fight this ko. $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . 5 8 . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X 7 O 3 6 . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . 1 2 X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X . O . O . . . X . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . O . . . . O . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm21 I ended up feeling this was a bit slack, and is the sort of move that may be good if I had supporting thickness to the right. $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X . O . O . . . X . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . O . . . . O . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm21 This and the last diagram suggest living with F17 specifically is important, of which I'm not necessarily convinced. $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 1 . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X . O . O . . . X . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . O . . . . O . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Edit: Somehow, I am immediately second guessing my choice. I actually really want to play F17 for some reason. Oh well, what can ya do.

Bill Spight · Post by **Bill Spight** » Wed Sep 28, 2011 5:02 pm

My instincts:

Loons · Post by **Loons** » Wed Sep 28, 2011 6:52 pm

After getting cold feet, I did some sifting for gold in GoGoD. And- it seems there is a quite analogous circumstance where this is played slightly earlier in fuseki.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm6 $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . 2 . 7 b . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . e a c d 6 . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , 1 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

After which, the situation is apparently quite fluid, though the letters are played.

I have slightly mixed feelings about leaning on my database here. On one hand, this has been very educational for me. On the other hand, pancake is really fighting a cyborg apotheosis Loons. On the other hand; cyborg apotheosis sounds pretty awesome.

Life In 19x19

138. Pancake 4d vs Loons 1d

Re: 138. Loons 1d vs Pancake 4d

Re: 138. Loons 1d vs Pancake 4d

Re: 138. Loons 1d vs Pancake 4d

Re: 138. Loons 1d vs Pancake 4d

Re: 138. Loons 1d vs Pancake 4d

Re: 138. Loons 1d vs Pancake 4d

Re: 138. Loons 1d vs Pancake 4d

Re: 138. Loons 1d vs Pancake 4d

Re: 138. Loons 1d vs Pancake 4d

Re: 138. Loons 1d vs Pancake 4d

Re: 138. Loons 1d vs Pancake 4d

Re: 138. Loons 1d vs Pancake 4d

Re: 138. Loons 1d vs Pancake 4d

Re: 138. Loons 1d vs Pancake 4d

Re: 138. Loons 1d vs Pancake 4d