Life In 19x19

Posted: **Thu Oct 13, 2011 5:28 pm**

Posted: **Thu Oct 13, 2011 5:37 pm**

Q13. I think cutting is the most active response. If White submits, then the following sequence can be expected:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm1 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X . O . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . 6 . O . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . . . a O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X 1 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . 8 . . . . 2 3 . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . 4 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

And this looks better for Black than White. Hence, I think White will cut at 'a' instead.

Posted: **Fri Oct 14, 2011 11:28 am**

Araban is right:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm10 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X . O . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 3 O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 2 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

According to the commentary, cutting like this is only natural. White cannot be expected to submit. In fact, the commentary even considers this variation:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm10 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X . O . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

But they note that black probably found this "too mild".

Posted: **Fri Oct 14, 2011 10:21 pm**

Bruce "Vulgate" Young

Posted: **Sat Oct 15, 2011 11:58 am**

Bug report: inline-hide does not work with apostrophes

Posted: **Mon Oct 17, 2011 5:24 am**

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm10 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X . O . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X 6 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Posted: **Mon Oct 17, 2011 5:29 am**

Posted: **Mon Oct 17, 2011 9:26 pm**

Oh...

Black R12 is a strange shape in this situation. White can exchange 16-17 and then take the initiative firmly with 18. It just feels uncomfortable for black to develop properly now. Almost like black is suddenly half to a whole move behind locally. After 18, 'b' is black's best option for making shape on the right side.

When black makes shape on the right side, white's dream is to get sente to play the beautiful followup enclosure at 'a'. See how nicely it works to practically connect white's marked groups and shut black in? It would be hard for black to cut and fight because the ladder favours white. So black will have to come up with a ploy to stop that happening now.

After white 'a', if black struggled to break through or make eyes against the enclosure, it would just solidify white's thickness naturally and J17 would turn into a bad move (too close to thickness). Because of that black would probably want to start a negotiation for eyespace in the top right corner and avoid being forced to solidify white at all costs.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm16 White feels good, black feels constricted $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X . O . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . W . . . 2 1 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . a . . W X B . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , b . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I vaguely remember studying a game several years ago where this shape happened and white actually did get to play 'a'. I won't make any more comments about the right side for now to avoid ruining it for others. If this turns out to be that game, I guess I'll bow out of the thread

.

Posted: **Tue Oct 18, 2011 2:29 am**

@David: wow, you clearly studied a lot of pro-games indeed! Apparently you really are a true "Go Game Guru"!

The question is now: how does white proceed against this black formation?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm10 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X . O . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . . . 8 7 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , 0 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Posted: **Tue Oct 18, 2011 2:35 am**

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm20 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X . O . . . X c b . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . . . X O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . O X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . a . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . 1 X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I figure

is likely because of the tesuji at "a", which means perhaps :b21:

is too soft, but I think the idea of :w22:

makes sense now Black's chosen to look after the right side. Having said that "b" is big for Black, so maybe White has to exchange "c" first?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm20 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X . O . . . X 3 . a . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . . . X O . b . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . O X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . 1 X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Which means that :b23:

is probably too slow, too, although "a" and "b" have so much aji .

Posted: **Tue Oct 18, 2011 2:46 am**

@topazg:

In your variation, there is the possibility of exchanging :w22:

for

, which feels great for white. Can black do something about that?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm20 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X . O . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . . . X O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . O X X 3 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . 4 . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . 1 X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Posted: **Tue Oct 18, 2011 3:00 am**

Why not w22 at 23 in the previous diagram?

B21 looks bad, should be one point to the right of 23 in the diagram...

Posted: **Tue Oct 18, 2011 3:25 am**

gaius wrote:@David: wow, you clearly studied a lot of pro-games indeed! Apparently you really are a true "Go Game Guru"!

@gaius Thanks, but Younggil is the real guru. I just make sure the umpa lumpas keep delivering the sacks of electricity to the web server.

@topazg, gaius:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm20 Black is crushed - 'a' is really nice, but this is decisive (and certain). $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X . O . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . . . X O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . a . . O X X 4 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . 3 5 . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . 1 X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

If b23@24, w24.

If black loses those cutting stones then those four stones at the top lose all their leverage, like so much dead weight.

It's one of those tactical situations where there almost is an 'only move'. As I see it, black has only two moves that work here. The challenge is working out what they are, and then, which one is better (and why).

As an aside, as most people probably know, feelings are really important in Go. When you hear a pro (or any strong player) talk about a position, notice how much they talk about feelings. If you can learn to catch that feeling your intuition should improve. Thinking is sometimes the slow way.

In this game, try to sense how black's shape feels constricted on the right side, like it's almost hard to breathe. How utterly disgusting it would feel to lose the cutting stones. And how beautiful and satisfying white's enclosure and connection is (even if not decisive).

I think you can improve a lot this way. Some players seem embarrassed to think about Go this way, but sometimes it seems to me that that can hold people back.

Posted: **Tue Oct 18, 2011 6:21 am**

@gogameguru:

Posted: **Tue Oct 18, 2011 2:47 pm**

hehe, topazg, you are right on your second try

Which continuation do you favour for white now?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm20 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X . O . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . . . X O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . 2 . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . 1 X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

By the way (hint),

Life In 19x19

Guess-the-next-move!

Re: Guess-the-next-move!

Re: Guess-the-next-move!

Re: Guess-the-next-move!

Re: Guess-the-next-move!

Re: Guess-the-next-move!

Re: Guess-the-next-move!

Re: Guess-the-next-move!

Re: Guess-the-next-move!

Re: Guess-the-next-move!

Re: Guess-the-next-move!

Re: Guess-the-next-move!

Re: Guess-the-next-move!

Re: Guess-the-next-move!

Re: Guess-the-next-move!

Re: Guess-the-next-move!