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#145 - hailthorn 8k vs Sur 7k

https://lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?t=5085

Page 4 of 5

Re: #145 - hailthorn 8k vs Sur 7k

Posted: Sun Dec 18, 2011 3:36 pm
by Loons
In response to Sur's question.

I gave this move a bit of thought, and while I'm not saying it's the best move, I feel like there is a rhyme and reason to it.

As a premise-

White wants to settle locally, because he already has a running group in the top right. However, a normal approach will meet a result like diagram A, unsatisfactory.

Diagram B is for reference, when black does not kick.

Diagram C is an established idea, when white wants to settle locally and wants to avoid diagram B.

Diagram D: So to avoid getting a weak group from A, white plays :w16: at :w18: in diagram C. If black seals white in, white has already played a checking extension.


A
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm16 Captures (B:) (W:)
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 1 . 5 . X . . X . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . X , 3 . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

B
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm16
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . 4 3 8 1 . . . X . . X . O . . X . . |
$$ | . 9 X 5 . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm25
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . X 1 X O . . . X . . X . O . . X . . |
$$ | . O X O 3 5 . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O 2 . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X 4 . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

C
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm16
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . a . . 1 . b . X . . X . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

D
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm16
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 3 5 . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . 4 . . X . . X . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . W . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

(As an aside, was this "useful" or "long, boring and somewhat pointless"?)

Re: #145 - hailthorn 8k vs Sur 7k

Posted: Tue Dec 27, 2011 4:12 pm
by hailthorn011
Sorry for yet another radio silence. I was away for the holidays for quite some time. And I'm finally settled in now, so I'll be sure to make moves on a daily basis. :salute:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm21 Captures (B:) (W:)
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . X O . X O O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . X . O . O X O . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . 8 X X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I'll be honest here- I did not think about this as a potential move at all, so I'm not entirely sure how this is going to work out. Either way, I look forward to seeing the result! This should be fun. :D

Re: #145 - hailthorn 8k vs Sur 7k

Posted: Wed Dec 28, 2011 8:19 am
by Sur
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm21 Captures (B:) (W:)
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . X O . X O O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . X . O . O X O . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . O X X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I'm thinking huge exchange or even killing him if he makes a mistake. Lets see what he does first.

Re: #145 - hailthorn 8k vs Sur 7k

Posted: Thu Dec 29, 2011 10:37 am
by hailthorn011
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm21 Captures (B:) (W:)
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . X O . X O O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . X . O . O X O . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . 0 . O X X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


The fun continues! :D Let's see how this all works out. Probably not a good idea to play with a headache, but oh well. I may die here, I may live here. Because of my decision to tenuki with :w16: this is a win or lose situation. Actually, to be honest, I've probably lost this game. However, I won't give up just yet. But I hate playing the Chinese opening. I always end up playing an overly aggressive move or ignore necessities. I think I've only ever beaten this opening once. And now you know why!

Either way, this game has been quite fun. Can't wait to see how it all turns out! :salute:

Re: #145 - hailthorn 8k vs Sur 7k

Posted: Fri Dec 30, 2011 7:30 am
by Sur
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm31 Captures (B:) (W:)
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . X O . X O O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . X 1 O . O X O . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . O . O X X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


The smart thing would probably be just connecting. But I'm in the fighting mood :-)

Re: #145 - hailthorn 8k vs Sur 7k

Posted: Sat Dec 31, 2011 7:30 am
by hailthorn011
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm31 Captures (B:) (W:)
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . X O . X O O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . X X O . O X O . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . O . O X X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X 2 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Hm, interesting. Well, this is definitely a fun situation! :D

Re: #145 - hailthorn 8k vs Sur 7k

Posted: Tue Jan 03, 2012 1:15 am
by Sur
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm31 Captures (B:) (W:)
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . X O . X O O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . X X O . O X O . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . O . O X X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I'm probably stupid for trying to kill him when I'm definetely in superior position, but I believe that he can't escape here.

Re: #145 - hailthorn 8k vs Sur 7k

Posted: Tue Jan 03, 2012 7:58 am
by Marcus
Escape route?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 Escape Route?
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O 1 . 2 . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . X O . X O O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . X X O . O X O . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , 4 3 O . O X X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . 5 X . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Re: #145 - hailthorn 8k vs Sur 7k

Posted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 11:59 pm
by hailthorn011
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm31 Captures (B:) (W:)
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . X O . X O O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . X X O . O X O . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . O . O X X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O 4 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Well, this is looking like a rather fun situation. Hm......

Re: #145 - hailthorn 8k vs Sur 7k

Posted: Sat Jan 07, 2012 2:31 am
by Sur
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm31 Captures (B:) (W:)
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . X O 5 X O O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . X X O . O X O . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . O . O X X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


This was a weakness for many moves, initially I thought about letting him out and making some exchange, but now it wouldn't work so well. I think I overcomitted to playing in this part of the board, I'm just fixing my shape, hopefully in sente and then I'll probably play elsewhere.

I believe he may very well panick and make some mistakes, let's see what he will do.

Re: #145 - hailthorn 8k vs Sur 7k

Posted: Sat Jan 07, 2012 2:33 am
by Sur
I was in a hurry and may have played a move that doesn't fix a $&*^#. Yep, that's me.

Re: #145 - hailthorn 8k vs Sur 7k

Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2012 1:46 pm
by hailthorn011
Sur, sorry for the lateness of this, but I'm going to resign. It was definitely fun, but I completely messed up on the top right!

Re: #145 - hailthorn 8k vs Sur 7k

Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2012 3:46 pm
by daniel_the_smith
Er, I admit that it's not looking great for white, but... I don't think this is a good point to resign, I think white can still live...

Re: #145 - hailthorn 8k vs Sur 7k

Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2012 3:48 pm
by illluck
Yes, if I were white I would be happy at black not just sealing the group inside.

Re: #145 - hailthorn 8k vs Sur 7k

Posted: Wed Jan 11, 2012 2:43 pm
by Sur
OK, thanks for the game. I too feel like the resignation was a little premature, but it was your decision to make.

I believe :w16: caused all your problems. You should have helped your weak group instead of playing elsewhere. Until then you played very well and I was kinda scared :-)
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