Page 4 of 14

Re: 154. illuck vs. Celebrir

Posted: Sun Jan 29, 2012 3:14 am
by Celebrir
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm31 illluck vs. Celebrir - Prisoners: 0-1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O . O . . O . X . O . X . . X . . |
$$ | O . O X . . . . . , . . O O X , . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . O . X . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . X X . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . X . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I guess I don't have much options here. I don't want this:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 illluck vs. Celebrir - Dia. 1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O . O . . O . X . O . X . . X . . |
$$ | O . O X . . . . . , . . O O X , . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . O . X . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . X X . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . 1 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 0 O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 8 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 6 . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . 7 3 . . X . . . . X . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . 5 4 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Therefore I would have to play like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm31 illluck vs. Celebrir - Dia. 2
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O . O . . O . X . O . X . . X . . |
$$ | O . O X . . . . . , . . O O X , . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . O . X . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . X X . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . 2 . . X . . . . X . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . 3 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I don't like this because he might be able to launch a good attack and/or reinforce his bottom side while I only safe my group. Therefore I'll just defend. This is not that bad. Remember that it was one of the moves I thought about at move 30.

Re: 154. illuck vs. Celebrir

Posted: Sun Jan 29, 2012 3:16 pm
by illluck
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm31 illluck vs. Celebrir - Prisoners: 0-1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O . O . . O . X . O . X . . X . . |
$$ | O . O X . . . . . , . . O O X , . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . O . X . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . X X . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . X . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

As mentioned before, the jump feels important enough to play. My bottom is sort of open, but I personally would have trouble deciding whether to split the bottom or approach from the right side.

Re: 154. illuck vs. Celebrir

Posted: Mon Jan 30, 2012 9:45 am
by Celebrir
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm31 illluck vs. Celebrir - Prisoners: 0-1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O . O . . O . X . O . X . . X . . |
$$ | O . O X . . . . . , . . O O X , . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . O . X . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . X X . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . 6 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . X . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


So he doesn't want this group to be attacked anymore. I guess I have the options to either settle my own group or doing something at the bottom. If I would save my group I would choose this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 illluck vs. Celebrir - Diagram 1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O . O . . O . X . O . X . . X . . |
$$ | O . O X . . . . . , . . O O X , . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . O . X . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . X X . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . . 1 a . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |[/go]


'a' would be another option, which could take away some points from his upper right, but I guess it is pretty cutable. Therefore I would prefer :w1:
For the bottom I see two options:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 illluck vs. Celebrir - Diagram 2
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O . O . . O . X . O . X . . X . . |
$$ | O . O X . . . . . , . . O O X , . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . O . X . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . X X . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 4 . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 2 . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . 1 . . X . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


This would try to take advantage of his tenuki after :wc: If B tenukis now, W could continue the attack with 'a' The other option would be to do something with his bottom right 3-3:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 illluck vs. Celebrir - Diagram 3
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O . O . . O . X . O . X . . X . . |
$$ | O . O X . . . . . , . . O O X , . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . O . X . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . X X . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . a . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 9 . . . . . 4 . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , 8 7 . . 3 1 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . X . . . . 2 X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . 6 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


This is an example which looks pretty nice because I build up some nice influence and with a move at 'a' it could become territory. I won't write down every possibility here but I don't see a variation which is really bad for me. Besides I get more information about his game plan at this way and might be able to decide between Dia. 1 and Dia. 2 later.

Re: 154. illuck vs. Celebrir

Posted: Mon Jan 30, 2012 11:39 am
by Uberdude
illluck will turn not slide after pushing once.

Re: 154. illuck vs. Celebrir

Posted: Mon Jan 30, 2012 1:12 pm
by illluck
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm31 illluck vs. Celebrir - Prisoners: 0-1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O . O . . O . X . O . X . . X . . |
$$ | O . O X . . . . . , . . O O X , . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . O . X . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . X X . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . X . . . . 7 X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I think this is correct direction. The other direction leaves possibility of black blocking at R5.

I'm not sure if I want to play the turn or the keima after white extends (white may jump instead, but then I'll just wedge in and it becomes a similar result to me turning.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm31 illluck vs. Celebrir - Prisoners: 0-1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O . O . . O . X . O . X . . X . . |
$$ | O . O X . . . . . , . . O O X , . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . O . X . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . X X . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . b . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . 8 6 a . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . X . . . . 7 X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I generally prefer the turn at A, but in this case it seems like B is better.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm31 illluck vs. Celebrir - Prisoners: 0-1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O . O . . O . X . O . X . . X . . |
$$ | O . O X . . . . . , . . O O X , . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . O . X . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . X X . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . 6 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . X . . 7 . . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Sometimes this move here (or the jump at other side) is interesting, but in this case I'm not strong enough on outside.

Re: 154. illuck vs. Celebrir

Posted: Tue Jan 31, 2012 2:40 am
by Celebrir
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm31 illluck vs. Celebrir - Prisoners: 0-1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O . O . . O . X . O . X . . X . . |
$$ | O . O X . . . . . , . . O O X , . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . O . X . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . X X . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . 8 O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . X . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I guess this decision is quite easy because I don't want this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 illluck vs. Celebrir - Dia. 1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O . O . . O . X . O . X . . X . . |
$$ | O . O X . . . . . , . . O O X , . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . O . X . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . X X . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . 8 . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 3 . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . 1 2 O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . a . . X . . 7 4 X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


This looks like I have 3 groups to worry about. All variations I know with :w1: at :b2: allow me to support my upper groups so this seems better. Of course I have an attack at 'a' but this seems very small if black fights well at the right side.

I don't know any other variations apart from the both I mentioned. But I'm far from beeing a expert for 3-3. If there are more, please tell me :)

Re: 154. illuck vs. Celebrir

Posted: Tue Jan 31, 2012 10:01 am
by illluck
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm31 illluck vs. Celebrir - Prisoners: 0-1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O . O . . O . X . O . X . . X . . |
$$ | O . O X . . . . . , . . O O X , . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . O . X . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . X X . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . O O 9 . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . X . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I mentioned in my last post that I thought the keima might be better than the turn, but I'm not so sure anymore. I think either way it becomes hard to attack the group, and with the turn there is a better chance to leave white sort of overconcentrated.

Re: 154. illuck vs. Celebrir

Posted: Tue Jan 31, 2012 12:27 pm
by Celebrir
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm31 illluck vs. Celebrir - Prisoners: 0-1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O . O . . O . X . O . X . . X . . |
$$ | O . O X . . . . . , . . O O X , . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . O . X . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . X X . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . 0 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . O O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . X . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


This time I don't know any other move than this. Please tell me if there are options. However, this doesn't seem bad to help my top

Re: 154. illuck vs. Celebrir

Posted: Tue Jan 31, 2012 3:01 pm
by illluck
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm41 illluck vs. Celebrir - Prisoners: 0-1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O . O . . O . X . O . X . . X . . |
$$ | O . O X . . . . . , . . O O X , . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . O . X . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . X X . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . O O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . X . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Typical 3-3 joseki.

Re: 154. illuck vs. Celebrir

Posted: Tue Jan 31, 2012 3:27 pm
by Uberdude
@Celebrir

Celebrir wrote:This time I don't know any other move than this. Please tell me if there are options. However, this doesn't seem bad to help my top


You could play the bad move hane at r5 and hope your opponent answers with the submissive mistake at s5 instead of the good answer clamp at r6 :)

Re: 154. illuck vs. Celebrir

Posted: Tue Jan 31, 2012 5:48 pm
by illluck
Normally white cannot block because then the cut is hard to deal with. Here it might be possible, but if I get the cut then I can start harassing N12 pretty easily, so I suspect it should be fine for me as well.

Re: 154. illuck vs. Celebrir

Posted: Thu Feb 02, 2012 7:27 am
by Celebrir
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm41 illluck vs. Celebrir - Prisoners: 0-1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O . O . . O . X . O . X . . X . . |
$$ | O . O X . . . . . , . . O O X , . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . O . X . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . X X . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . O O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . X . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


There are few choices now I know:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 illluck vs. Celebrir - Dia. 1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O . O . . O . X . O . X . . X . . |
$$ | O . O X . . . . . , . . O O X , . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . O . X . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . X X . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . a . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . 2 3 O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . O O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . X . . 4 . X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

This looks ugly for me. Besides B can still play at 'a' which looks bad for me in this position.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 illluck vs. Celebrir - Dia. 2
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O . O . . O . X . O . X . . X . . |
$$ | O . O X . . . . . , . . O O X , . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . O . X . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . X X . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . 2 . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . O O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . X . . . 3 X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

This looks like the wrong direction because I want to help my to stones.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 illluck vs. Celebrir - Dia. 3
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O . O . . O . X . O . X . . X . . |
$$ | O . O X . . . . . , . . O O X , . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . O . X . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . X X . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . 1 9 5 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . d a 8 . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . 3 0 b 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . c 7 6 X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . O O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . X . . 4 . X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

With the last move at 'a' This looks okay for me. If he protects at 'b' I can play 'c' and don't need to worry about 'd' because this cut doesn't work now:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 illluck vs. Celebrir - Dia. 3
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O . O . . O . X . O . X . . X . . |
$$ | O . O X . . . . . , . . O O X , . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . O . X . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . X X . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . 6 8 O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 5 7 . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . 0 9 3 O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 1 O X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . O X X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . O O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . X . . X . X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

:b5: at :b9: doesn't help because B has only one liberty than and can be forced to play the same way as before.

Re: 154. illuck vs. Celebrir

Posted: Thu Feb 02, 2012 9:39 am
by illluck
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm41 illluck vs. Celebrir - Prisoners: 0-1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O . O . . O . X . O . X . . X . . |
$$ | O . O X . . . . . , . . O O X , . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . O . X . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . X X . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . O O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . X . . 3 . X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Still joseki. I actually was going to play the jump on the other side before I remembered I was trying to over-concentrate somehow. Here white probably shouldn't block on the other side, but I'm not exactly sure of the next move. Perhaps something like H3?

Re: 154. illuck vs. Celebrir

Posted: Thu Feb 02, 2012 12:12 pm
by Celebrir
Uberdude wrote:@Celebrir

Celebrir wrote:This time I don't know any other move than this. Please tell me if there are options. However, this doesn't seem bad to help my top


You could play the bad move hane at r5 and hope your opponent answers with the submissive mistake at s5 instead of the good answer clamp at r6 :)

True, you got me here ;) Should say a "playable" option.


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm41 illluck vs. Celebrir - Prisoners: 0-1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O . O . . O . X . O . X . . X . . |
$$ | O . O X . . . . . , . . O O X , . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . O . X . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . X X . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . O 4 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . O O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . X . . X . X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


This seems to be one move to soon for the joseki I know... (See Dia.3 in for my last post to see what I expected.) It seems bad to continue like I planned because he can come back to the normal joseki than.I'll try to punish him with the theory "His good move is my good move"

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 illluck vs. Celebrir - Dia.1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O . O . . O . X . O . X . . X . . |
$$ | O . O X . . . . . , . . O O X , . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . O . X . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . X X . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 6 8 9 . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . 5 4 O 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 2 X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . O O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . X . . X . X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


The cut doesn't seem to work and I don't see any other danger. I hope I don't overlook anything.

Re: 154. illuck vs. Celebrir

Posted: Thu Feb 02, 2012 12:29 pm
by Loons
Idly counting. Probably a bit optimistic for white on the right.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc illluck vs. Celebrir - Prisoners: 0-1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | 1 3 . . . . o . . . . . . . x . . 1 1 |
$$ | . . . o . . o . . . . . . . x . . . . |
$$ | . O O . O o . O . X . O . X x . X . . |
$$ | O . O X . . . . . , . . O O X x . x x |
$$ | . O X . . . . O . X . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . X X . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . |
$$ | x x . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . x . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . |
$$ | 6 . X . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . x , . . . . . , . . . . . O o o o |
$$ | x x x . . . . . . . . . . . . o . 9 . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . o . . o o |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | o o o . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . O O X x x |
$$ | . . . o . X . . . . X x x X . X X . . |
$$ | 1 2 . O . . . . . . x . . . x . . . . |
$$ | . . . o . . . . . . x . . . . 1 7 . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]