Life In 19x19

Magicwand wrote:Nikolas73 : FYI
P14 will work at kyu level but if you play against stronger player you will not be successful.
you will have to feel why it is a bad move yourself so i am just telling you the answer.
when you feel that P14 is a bad move you may be 1D level certified.

Hmm, you think so? I considered P16, R12 and O17, but they seemed a tad too territorial for a sanrensei opening. Well, I'll think about it, thanks for the tip..

What I heard is, with such a Keima you're leaving only weaknesses behind.
Of course you'll scare a lot of weaker players, because we tend to overestimate Moyos but in the end this Keima can easily be cut when White approaches the other side. If you defend, White has the chance to develop one side and thus might be able to chase your corner stones, because the Keima didn't give you a base.
A complicated position, indeed, but with proper fighting skills and reading it is bad for Black (in this example).

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B
$$ ------------------
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . a . . . . . |
$$ X . . . b . X . . . |
$$ . . . . . c . . . . |
$$ . . . . . 1 . O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

The proper Moyo-move (Takemiya) for Black in this example would be 'c'. A Kosumi cannot be cut.

Nikolas73 wrote:[...] but they seemed a tad too territorial for a sanrensei opening

As far as I understand the San-Ren-Sei, there's nothing wrong with taking territory, when your opponent approaches/attacks/invades you. This is in my opinion the actual idea behind this opening.

I disagree with both Magicwand and SoDesuNe here. The keima has been played professionally plenty of times, and unless Takemiya is a hypocrite, then what SoDesuNe makes no sense because he is the one who uses it the most:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bc Takemiya M. as B vs. Ishida Y.
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$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wc Takemiya M. as B vs. Rin K.
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$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wc Takemiya M. as B vs. Yata N.
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$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

And other professionals have played it of course, to list a few in the past...:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wc Onada C. vs. Kitani M. as B
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$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wc Kubomatsu K. vs. Go S. as B
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$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

...and the present:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wc Dong Y. vs. Li K.
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$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wc Liu J. vs. Luo X. as B
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$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

So if it's fine by the likes to Takemiya Masaki, Kitani Minoru, Go Seigen, Luo Xihe, and more...then it's fine by me.

And in response to Magicwand's post to Nikolas...when you feel the move is bad, and then fine again, you may be 5d certified .

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wc Takemiya M. as B vs. Rin K.
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$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

G14?? No wonder everyone loves this guy

topazg wrote:

$$Wc Takemiya M. as B vs. Rin K.
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$$ ---------------------------------------

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wc Takemiya M. as B vs. Rin K.
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$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

G14?? No wonder everyone loves this guy

Yes, it's a move I need to try more often to open my mind.

Oddly I think of a Vulture from SC whenever I see it (you can kind of see it from the shape). And like the Vulture it's light, nimble, and if you try to exploit it too quickly you might get a Spider Mine to the face .

Ha ha ha, okay I'll try to refrain from naming professionals, if I am not familiar with all their ("special") moves ^^

Thanks anyway, I learnt something!

Araban wrote:

topazg wrote:

$$Wc Takemiya M. as B vs. Rin K.
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$$ ---------------------------------------

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wc Takemiya M. as B vs. Rin K.
$$ ---------------------------------------
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$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

G14?? No wonder everyone loves this guy

Yes, it's a move I need to try more often to open my mind.

Oddly I think of a Vulture from SC whenever I see it (you can kind of see it from the shape). And like the Vulture it's light, nimble, and if you try to exploit it too quickly you might get a Spider Mine to the face .

Something's wrong here. Black has made 7 moves, but White only 5.

prokofiev wrote:Something's wrong here. Black has made 7 moves, but White only 5.

Yep, forgot a move. Edited.

Araban wrote:I disagree with both Magicwand and SoDesuNe here. The keima has been played professionally plenty of times, and unless Takemiya is a hypocrite, then what SoDesuNe makes no sense because he is the one who uses it the most:

yes you are correct that takameya (masaki?) has played that move many times.
i remember when i used to review professional's game. 20 years ago.

BUT! takameya was a radical who was willing to try new ideas.
if it is a good move why aren't professional today not playing such move?
what i felt about that move when i experiminted on my game was.... akward.
it has a weak spots and very hard to fix.
on some games it might be appropriate but i felt that on a normal opening it is sub joseki. and i bet many professionals feel that way about that move.

just because few professionals experimented a move doesnt mean it is a good move.

Magicwand wrote:

Araban wrote:I disagree with both Magicwand and SoDesuNe here. The keima has been played professionally plenty of times, and unless Takemiya is a hypocrite, then what SoDesuNe makes no sense because he is the one who uses it the most:

yes you are correct that takameya (masaki?) has played that move many times.
i remember when i used to review professional's game. 20 years ago.

BUT! takameya was a radical who was willing to try new ideas.
if it is a good move why aren't professional today not playing such move?
what i felt about that move when i experiminted on my game was.... akward.
it has a weak spots and very hard to fix.
on some games it might be appropriate but i felt that on a normal opening it is sub joseki. and i bet many professionals feel that way about that move.

just because few professionals experimented a move doesnt mean it is a good move.

The answer is quite simple actually: the problem is that today most professionals aren't even willing to try the san-ren-sei, so the opportunity to even set up the opening for the keima is severely restricted. Unless you're willing to extend your argument to say that the san-ren-sei is bad (which is a bold statement), then the argument doesn't hold much ground when the conditional requirement for the keima is a specific opening that is also rare today. Most professionals play territorially and strive to win rather than try bold ideas, but I think the handful of games where we do see professionals use it is more than enough for amateurs at our level to consider. And as I wrote in my earlier thread, it isn't just Takemiya who played that move and I showed games from other pros who have also used it.

To me, it makes a lot of intuitive sense as a move. Sure, it leaves weaknesses the other side that White can poke holes at, but Black has not just the hoshi on the edge, but in the other corner too, so he shouldn't be frightened of White doing this. It looks complicated, and a number of ways it could go wrong could be disastrously so (and the same in the other direction), but that's how professionals play a lot of the time, dancing along the edge of a very sharp sword.

Here is game 2 between me and Padic. Padic was Black and I took White. Result is W+R, so I lead our series 2-0.
Game 3 will be tbh, but possibly around 19:00CEST tomorrow. I will post exact time before the match.

[sgf-full](;GM[1]FF[4]CA[UTF-8]AP[CGoban:3]ST[2]
RU[Japanese]SZ[19]KM[6.50]TM[1800]OT[5x60 byo-yomi]
PW[Aphelion02]PB[padic]WR[6k]BR[5k]DT[2010-05-26]PC[The KGS Go Server at http://www.gokgs.com/]C[
padic [5k\]: okay, have a good game
]RE[W+Resign]
;B[pd]BL[1786.97]
;W[dc]WL[1795.518]C[
Aphelion02 [6k\]: keep my cool?
]
;B[pq]BL[1779.574]
;W[dq]WL[1792.058]
;B[qk]BL[1771.67]C[Aphelion02 [6k\]: i was sweating bullets
]
;W[mp]WL[1789.751]C[padic [5k\]: one can't tell over the internet
]
(;B[pn]BL[1748.792]C[goatsunday [8k\]: staying calm under pressure
Aphelion02 [6k\]: many ppl are tempted to gobble up the whole side
Aphelion02 [6k\]: in one move
ExplO [2d\]: here there are problemes with r7 and r3
ExplO [2d\]: and it's hard to cover them with one more move
]
;W[jp]WL[1784.923]
;B[ce]BL[1740.058]
;W[dh]WL[1778.273]
;B[cc]BL[1715.891]C[padic [5k\]: right.. i didn't expect that the corner was covered completely
]
;W[cb]WL[1775.673]C[padic [5k\]: but I thought it more or less was enough for making living along the side there painful
]
(;B[bc]BL[1710.785]
(;W[bb]WL[1745.434]C[ExplO [2d\]: I didn't like b18
]
;B[dd]BL[1701.135]
;W[ec]WL[1743.547]
(;B[ed]BL[1691.156]
;W[fc]WL[1732.919]C[Shadonra [1d\]: hallo
ExplO [2d\]: black group is still a bit weak
Shadonra [1d\]: b12 is urgent
ExplO [2d\]: but hard to find a good move to defend it
]
(;B[do]BL[1667.6]C[Aphelion02 [6k\]: hi shaddy
]
;W[cm]WL[1730.061]
;B[cq]BL[1638.248]
;W[cp]WL[1634.171]
;B[dp]BL[1498.56]
;W[co]WL[1630.878]C[ExplO [2d\]: I'm not sure what black is thinking about, only one possible move here
Nakamura [7k\]: e3?
]
(;B[dr]BL[1390.356]C[Shadonra [1d\]: but when you play that joseki, the slide and b18 are miai
Aphelion02 [6k\]: i really like this pincer
]
;W[eq]WL[1626.451]C[Nakamura [7k\]: or the corner. D=
]
;B[bq]BL[1384.247]C[Aphelion02 [6k\]: because there are so many way for blackto mess up
]
(;W[dn]WL[1620.529]C[ExplO [2d\]: c6 was the only move
]
;B[er]BL[1354.784]C[Nakamura [7k\]: Ah, I thought of that too. I see.
ExplO [2d\]: e2 was double sente, so it's good to play it
]
;W[fq]WL[1614.801]C[ExplO [2d\]: d6 was wrong too
RedStick [6k\]: whew. just when i thought i'd have to go back to working.
RedStick [6k\]: i get to watch a kuchinashi game.
Aphelion02 [6k\]: yea
]
;B[jc]BL[1269.094]C[Aphelion02 [6k\]: i didn't read out c6
Aphelion02 [6k\]: afterwards
Aphelion02 [6k\]: if i played e2
]
;W[qf]WL[1590.601]
(;B[qh]BL[1260.389]
;W[qc]WL[1582.315]
;B[pc]BL[1251.744]C[ExplO [2d\]: I would have blocked from the other side, but hard to tell what is better
]
;W[qd]WL[1580.34]
;B[pe]BL[1247.08]
;W[rf]WL[1578.201]
;B[pf]BL[1239.337]
;W[fd]WL[1540.85]C[ExplO [2d\]: and k17 is low
]
;B[fe]BL[1236.951]
;W[ge]WL[1538.226]
;B[ff]BL[1232.462]
;W[df]WL[1534.097]
;B[cf]BL[1207.31]
;W[dg]WL[1519.555]
;B[de]BL[1194.956]
;W[bg]WL[1510.589]
;B[gf]BL[1177.033]
;W[he]WL[1506.811]
;B[bf]BL[1164.585]
(;W[bd]WL[1480.197]C[ExplO [2d\]: this move was bad
Shadonra [1d\]: i'd rather just slide here, seems to avoid complications
ExplO [2d\]: the purpose of an attack is to gain points
Aphelion02 [6k\]: ahh
Aphelion02 [6k\]: what would you play
Aphelion02 [6k\]: my idea was to squeeze black
Aphelion02 [6k\]: to the right
ExplO [2d\]: here, you lose some points
]
;B[ad]BL[1146.31]
;W[bh]WL[1448.88]
;B[hf]BL[1119.938]
;W[ie]WL[1444.553]
;B[gi]BL[1116.216]C[ExplO [2d\]: in the game
ExplO [2d\]: 1- you lost some points around a17
ExplO [2d\]: 2- you invited black to get in the area where you want to make territorry
Aphelion02 [6k\]: also bottom and left
ExplO [2d\]: so black destroys many points while making life
Aphelion02 [6k\]: yea, this sucked
]
;W[gk]WL[1362.013]
(;B[im]BL[1070.137]C[ExplO [2d\]: g11 is not completly safe and j7 will be attacked as well
padic [5k\]: so if white j9 black counters with a moyo of his own?
]
;W[ik]WL[1356.395]
;B[km]BL[1042.288]
;W[mm]WL[1308.497]
;B[ll]BL[983.16]C[RedStick [6k\]: i don't know how i feel about what B is doing here
]
;W[ml]WL[1228.968]C[Aphelion02 [6k\]: after black tenuki
]
(;B[ke]BL[944.909]
(;W[lk]WL[1148.822]C[RedStick [6k\]: L9?
ExplO [2d\]: maybe black is worried about white's answer at j8
RedStick [6k\]: oops. i meant k9.
RedStick [6k\]: L9 , k8 was my first read though.
Nakamura [7k\]: doesn't seem like there is much to work with.
ExplO [2d\]: hum, I still prefer l9
Nakamura [7k\]: Pushing out around L9 is his only hope, seems to me.
Nakamura [7k\]: Maybe take the K8 cut just to get out.
RedStick [6k\]: J8 best response to K9?
RedStick [6k\]: no. i'm blind.
RedStick [6k\]: what hurts k9?
]
;B[kk]BL[616.251]C[ExplO [2d\]: k9 k10 ans black is sealed
ExplO [2d\]: and*
Nakamura [7k\]: I was going to say K10 but I wasn't sure if it was too direct.
RedStick [6k\]: i read that after a crosscut he could get out through h9. maybe?
]
(;W[hi]WL[929.898]C[ExplO [2d\]: maybe
]
;B[jk]BL[514.37]
;W[lj]WL[910]C[Nakamura [7k\]: k11? or go after 3 white stones?
]
;B[ji]BL[489.602]
;W[ii]WL[907.531]
;B[jh]BL[470.254]
;W[if]WL[902.987]
;B[ig]BL[452.47]C[Aphelion02 [6k\]: i read this wrong here
]
;W[gh]WL[799.09]
;B[hg]BL[437.909]
;W[il]WL[735.995]
;B[jl]BL[427.41]
;W[lh]WL[734.058]C[ExplO [2d\]: white got quite a lot on the left side
padic [5k\]: was white h11 right? I thought k8 would still be bad for black at that point
]
;B[kg]BL[406.754]
;W[jf]WL[645.587]C[Aphelion02 [6k\]: meh
Aphelion02 [6k\]: this was not so nice
ExplO [2d\]: this didn't look great
Aphelion02 [6k\]: i just solidified him more
ExplO [2d\]: yes
]
;B[kf]BL[268.602]
;W[qm]WL[622.126]
(;B[pm]BL[246.791]C[Shadonra [1d\]: w doesn't take much away
]
;W[qn]WL[583.634]
;B[qo]BL[240.153]C[Aphelion02 [6k\]: :S
Aphelion02 [6k\]: but black connects anyways
]
(;W[po]WL[516.744]
(;B[oo]BL[152.767]C[oren [6k\]: who will win
]
;W[jn]WL[200.148]
;B[jm]BL[140.407]
;W[lm]WL[195.553]
;B[hc]BL[101.799]
;W[gd]WL[191.513]
;B[jg]BL[95.39]
;W[ro]WL[187.886]C[Nakamura [7k\]: D=
]
;B[qp]BL[84.129]SQ[oo][po]C[ExplO [2d\]: anyway the marked exchange is not good
Aphelion02 [6k\]: yes
padic [5k\]: after h17, is there some trouble if black g18?
]
;W[ql]WL[186.284]
(;B[pl]BL[69.13]
;W[rk]WL[184.839]
;B[qj]BL[59.141]
;W[rj]WL[178.7]
;B[mo]BL[30.568]C[Shadonra [1d\]: nice
ExplO [2d\]: n5, what is the pupose?
]
;W[lo]WL[176.422]
;B[mn]BL[5.604]
;W[ln]WL[170.647]C[Nakamura [7k\]: N2 for black?
padic [5k\]: misreading pretty much
ExplO [2d\]: it only helped white in the game
]
;B[rp]BL[60]OB[5]C[Nakamura [7k\]: Well eventually, at least.
]
;W[ri]WL[116.889]
;B[qi]BL[60]OB[5]
;W[qb]WL[60]OW[5]
;B[pb]BL[60]OB[5]
;W[pa]WL[60]OW[5]
;B[oa]BL[60]OB[5]
;W[qa]WL[60]OW[5]
;B[ob]BL[60]OB[5]
;W[gb]WL[60]OW[5]
(;B[hb]BL[60]OB[5]C[Aphelion02 [6k\]: i always never see moves like n2
]
;W[ha]WL[60]OW[5]
;B[hn]BL[60]OB[5]
;W[ja]WL[60]OW[5]
;B[kb]BL[60]OB[5]
;W[go]WL[60]OW[4]
;B[ho]BL[60]OB[5]
;W[hp]WL[60]OW[4]
;B[gn]BL[60]OB[5]
;W[fo]WL[60]OW[4]
;B[fn]BL[60]OB[5]
;W[fl]WL[60]OW[4]
;B[mr]BL[60]OB[5]
;W[kr]WL[60]OW[2]
;B[np]BL[60]OB[5]
;W[mq]WL[60]OW[2]
;B[nq]BL[60]OB[5]
;W[ka]WL[60]OW[2]
;B[la]BL[60]OB[5]C[Aphelion02 [6k\]: should just n13
]
(;W[mf]WL[60]OW[2]C[Aphelion02 [6k\]: ack
]
;B[mg]BL[60]OB[5]
;W[lg]WL[60]OW[2]
;B[lf]BL[60]OB[5]
;W[ng]WL[60]OW[2]
;B[mh]BL[60]OB[5]
;W[nh]WL[60]OW[2]
;B[mi]BL[60]OB[5]
;W[ni]WL[60]OW[2]
;B[li]BL[60]OB[5]
;W[nj]WL[60]OW[2]C[Aphelion02 [6k\]: so much lack of reading
]
;B[nf]BL[60]OB[5]
;W[of]WL[60]OW[2]
;B[ne]BL[60]OB[5]
;W[pg]WL[60]OW[2]
;B[ok]BL[60]OB[5]
;W[oe]WL[60]OW[2]
;B[od]BL[60]OB[5]
;W[og]WL[60]OW[2]
;B[rh]BL[60]OB[5]C[padic [5k\]: watch the timer, I haven't counted exactly but I don't think I can win this on time in good conscience
]
;W[nd]WL[60]OW[1]
;B[me]BL[60]OB[5]C[Aphelion02 [6k\]: thanks for the heads up
]
;W[nc]WL[60]OW[1]C[Aphelion02 [6k\]: i should have just left it
Aphelion02 [6k\]: since he has to defeind m18
Aphelion02 [6k\]: too
padic [5k\]: I think you could've taken a few stones there at least?
Aphelion02 [6k\]: yea
padic [5k\]: m18?
Aphelion02 [6k\]: but i was worried
Aphelion02 [6k\]: right might die
]
;B[mb]BL[60]OB[5]C[Aphelion02 [6k\]: i wonder
Aphelion02 [6k\]: so i wantedto make sure i got p18
Aphelion02 [6k\]: and not just m19
]
;W[rn]WL[60]OW[1]
;B[si]BL[60]OB[5]
;W[sl]WL[60]OW[1]
;B[en]BL[60]OB[5]
;W[em]WL[60]OW[1]
;B[eo]BL[60]OB[4]
;W[fr]WL[60]OW[1]
(;B[cs]BL[60]OB[4]C[ExplO [2d\]: here c1 isn't needed
padic [5k\]: huh, okay
ExplO [2d\]: and if you reinfoce anyway, b2 is probably better
ExplO [2d\]: the reason is
]
;W[bp]WL[60]OW[1]
(;B[aq]BL[60]OB[4]C[padic [5k\]: b6, does that help anything?
]
;W[es]WL[60]OW[1]
;B[br]BL[60]OB[4]
;W[lr]WL[60]OW[1]
;B[ms]BL[60]OB[4]
;W[sj]WL[60]OW[1]
;B[sh]BL[60]OB[4]C[padic [5k\]: I was actually looking at a6 :/
]
;W[sp]WL[60]OW[1]
;B[sq]BL[60]OB[4]
;W[so]WL[60]OW[1]C[padic [5k\]: when you said b6
]
;B[rq]BL[60]OB[3]
;W[ls]WL[60]OW[1]
;B[nr]BL[60]OB[3]
;W[in]WL[60]OW[1]
;B[hl]BL[60]OB[3]
;W[hk]WL[60]OW[1]C[Aphelion02 [6k\]: i'd have settled for seki
]
(;B[sf]BL[60]OB[3]C[Shadonra [1d\]: s14 here
padic [5k\]: I was sort of trying to do something big, kill something or create a seki
Shadonra [1d\]: 15, sorry
padic [5k\]: desperation
]
;W[re]WL[60]OW[1]C[RedStick [6k\]: f12
]
;B[qg]BL[60]OB[3]C[ExplO [2d\]: f12 is big
ExplO [2d\]: a4 too
]
;W[nk]WL[60]OW[1]
;B[sd]BL[60]OB[3]
;W[sc]WL[60]OW[1]
(;B[rc]BL[60]OB[3]C[goatsunday [8k\]: good job keeping your cool
]
;W[se]WL[60]OW[1]C[RedStick [6k\]: would t18 have worked?
Aphelion02 [6k\]: looked realy scary
Aphelion02 [6k\]: explo, do you mind reviewing
ExplO [2d\]: nope
]
;B[sb]BL[60]OB[3]C[ExplO [2d\]: I don't think so
ExplO [2d\]: white cuts at t15 and it's the same result as the game
]
;W[rb]WL[60]OW[1]
(;B[sc]BL[60]OB[3]C[ExplO [2d\]: t17 is gote actually
]
(;W[sg]WL[60]OW[1]C[padic [5k\]: thanks
Aphelion02 [6k\]: thanks
Aphelion02 [6k\]: whew
Aphelion02 [6k\]: that should have been ko?
padic [5k\]: last chance was there being something very nasty in the corner I thought
padic [5k\]: should it?
]
;B[rg]
;W[io]
;B[qe]
;W[rd]C[ExplO [2d\]: white is fine if he ignores
Aphelion02 [6k\]: mm
padic [5k\]: right, white can just capture so there's nothing
Aphelion02 [6k\]: i didn't realize i was 30 points ahead
Aphelion02 [6k\]: i thought it was like 10
ExplO [2d\]: black does not have many points
Aphelion02 [6k\]: thanks for the review
ExplO [2d\]: you're welcome
padic [5k\]: yeah, thanks
Aphelion02 [6k\]: padic, when do you want to play enxt
ExplO [2d\]: if no questions, I'll close
Aphelion02 [6k\]: *next
Aphelion02 [6k\]: yea, no questions
Shadonra [1d\]: man, i wish i could play in a tourney like this
Aphelion02 [6k\]: haha
padic [5k\]: tomorrow?
Aphelion02 [6k\]: ok
Aphelion02 [6k\]: 18:00?
padic [5k\]: sure
Shadonra [1d\]: next cup better be 2k-2d
Aphelion02 [6k\]: only if we advance to 2k
Shadonra [1d\]: i wish you luck then
Aphelion02 [6k\]: its been the same ppl proposing it
RedStick [6k\]: i think it would be amazing. no need to wait on us.
Aphelion02 [6k\]: nonsense
Shadonra [1d\]: i guess there are plenty of 2k-2d on the forum
padic [5k\]: haha
Aphelion02 [6k\]: we must make 1d soon!
Shadonra [1d\]: maybe i will set this up
Aphelion02 [6k\]: else they'd never get to play!
Aphelion02 [6k\]: more incentive for them to teach us
Shadonra [1d\]: i'm always up for teaching
Aphelion02 [6k\]: but yea i think a dan level
Aphelion02 [6k\]: tourny would be great
Aphelion02 [6k\]: there's a lot of pppl
Shadonra [1d\]: also i learned teaching from feng yun, who thinks that beating people until they learn is how you do it
Aphelion02 [6k\]: o.O
Aphelion02 [6k\]: *backs away slowly*
Aphelion02 [6k\]: my mom had the same philosophy
Shadonra [1d\]: yeahh...
Shadonra [1d\]: i mean it worked!
Shadonra [1d\]: definitely worked
Aphelion02 [6k\]: haha
Shadonra [1d\]: just.. painful.
Aphelion02 [6k\]: and possibly traumatic
Shadonra [1d\]: taking 9 stones and losing by 100 will do that
Aphelion02 [6k\]: god
Aphelion02 [6k\]: wow thats really bad
Shadonra [1d\]: i mean i was only 5k
Shadonra [1d\]: but still, it was discouraging
Aphelion02 [6k\]: but steal...
Aphelion02 [6k\]: *still
Aphelion02 [6k\]: thats like
Shadonra [1d\]: but the reviews were amazing, she sees really cool tesuji
Aphelion02 [6k\]: you barely have a living group
Shadonra [1d\]: yup
Aphelion02 [6k\]: are u still learning from her?
Shadonra [1d\]: no, can't - college and stuff, i can't go to her rutgers classes
Aphelion02 [6k\]: wow u learnt in poserson?
Aphelion02 [6k\]: *person
Shadonra [1d\]: yeah
Aphelion02 [6k\]: lucky
Shadonra [1d\]: she is of the philosophy that doing lots of easy tsumego is better for learning, btw
])
(;W[ap]C[ExplO [2d\]: white can block here
])
(;W[fh]C[ExplO [2d\]: or here
])
(;W[ab])
(;W[io]C[ExplO [2d\]: many good alternatives
Aphelion02 [6k\]: yes
padic [5k\]: yeah, I was under the mistaken impression that I was making a ko
padic [5k\]: thus the resignation one move later
]))
(;B[sa])
(;B[qe])
(;B[ra]
;W[rd]C[ExplO [2d\]: there was nothing in the corner
]
;B[qe]))
(;B[se]
;W[rd]
;B[sg]
;W[rb]C[ExplO [2d\]: also 5 points in the corner here
ExplO [2d\]: and sente for black
]
(;B[ab]
;W[eb]
;B[ap]C[Aphelion02 [6k\]: f12?
Aphelion02 [6k\]: isn't that bigger
])
(;B[fh]
;W[fi]C[Shadonra [1d\]: w will cut him off
]
(;B[fg]
;W[ei]C[ExplO [2d\]: bigger I don't know
Aphelion02 [6k\]: why doesn't black atari
Aphelion02 [6k\]: and poke in
])
(;B[ei]
;W[gj]
;B[eh]
;W[ef]C[Aphelion02 [6k\]: ahh
ExplO [2d\]: some connection problems
]))))
(;B[ap]C[ExplO [2d\]: a4 is still big
])
(;B[fh]C[ExplO [2d\]: and f12
padic [5k\]: hm, okay
])
(;B[re]
;W[qe]
;B[sf]
;W[rd]
;B[se]
;W[sd]
(;B[sg]C[Shadonra [1d\]: sente!
Aphelion02 [6k\]: i'm so bad with corner problems
])
(;B[qg]
;W[nk]
;B[sg]C[Aphelion02 [6k\]: is it ko in corner?
Shadonra [1d\]: yes
ExplO [2d\]: yes
]
;W[oh]
;B[sb]
;W[rb]
;B[sc]
;W[sa])))
(;B[nr]
;W[ar]
;B[br]
;W[aq]
;B[es]
;W[bs]C[ExplO [2d\]: this is ko
])
(;B[ap]C[ExplO [2d\]: no reason not the play the hane though
]
;W[ao]
;B[aq]C[ExplO [2d\]: you can play b6 later
ExplO [2d\]: in the game white had the chance to play at a4
]
;W[lr]C[padic [5k\]: except as a ko threat?
]
;B[bn]
;W[cn]
;B[bo]
;W[bm]
;B[an]C[padic [5k\]: oh
]
;W[am]
;B[ao]C[Shadonra [1d\]: 6 pt gote
padic [5k\]: huh
padic [5k\]: nice
ExplO [2d\]: worth 6 points in gote
]))
(;B[br]
;W[bp]C[padic [5k\]: will look over that later, it looked so shaky
ExplO [2d\]: this is alive, without extramove
]))
(;W[mg]C[ExplO [2d\]: maybe
]
;B[mi]C[ExplO [2d\]: but you have to be sure black cannot cut
Aphelion02 [6k\]: seems fine?
ExplO [2d\]: yes
]))
(;B[fr]C[Aphelion02 [6k\]: vexes me so much
ExplO [2d\]: f2 is really big
]))
(;B[gb]
(;W[ab]C[Shadonra [1d\]: dead
]
;B[da])
(;W[da]C[Aphelion02 [6k\]: o,O
ExplO [2d\]: alive like this
])))
(;B[ro]C[ExplO [2d\]: maybe black can kill now
padic [5k\]: was worried about q8
padic [5k\]: but no need?
Aphelion02 [6k\]: eh wait
]
;W[pl]C[Aphelion02 [6k\]: actually
]
;B[ql]C[Aphelion02 [6k\]: no ladder
Shadonra [1d\]: q8, r8, p6, p7
ExplO [2d\]: right
]
;W[on]
;B[om]
;W[ol]C[Aphelion02 [6k\]: p8
]
;B[nm]
;W[nn]C[Aphelion02 [6k\]: yea or this
]))
(;W[ro]C[ExplO [2d\]: directly here
Aphelion02 [6k\]: i was dreaming here
Aphelion02 [6k\]: h it hought i had a way to kill q3
]))
(;B[qn]C[Shadonra [1d\]: that's a weird invasion point
ExplO [2d\]: I would defend here
ExplO [2d\]: I think it's hard to kill it
Aphelion02 [6k\]: i was looking between that and something around r3
padic [5k\]: okay
ExplO [2d\]: and also hard to use the wall after
]))
(;W[jl]
;B[kl]
;W[jm]
;B[kn]
;W[jn]C[Aphelion02 [6k\]: yea was my first consideration
Aphelion02 [6k\]: i think iw as worried about o8
ExplO [2d\]: it big too
Aphelion02 [6k\]: afterwards
ExplO [2d\]: but the result in the game is ok too
padic [5k\]: okay
ExplO [2d\]: I don't know the best way for both here
]))
(;W[jl]C[ExplO [2d\]: what do you answer here?
padic [5k\]: yeah I regretted that tenuki after I played it
ExplO [2d\]: cutting the tail is already a lot of safe points
]
;B[jm]
;W[lk]C[Shadonra [1d\]: l5?
padic [5k\]: I think I'd have to lose the tail which is terrible
]))
(;B[lj])
(;B[lk]C[ExplO [2d\]: black must defend
ExplO [2d\]: this is where the action is
ExplO [2d\]: not at the top
Aphelion02 [6k\]: mm if in game i plaoyed m10
Aphelion02 [6k\]: does it kill
]))
(;B[ii]TR[ik][mm]C[ExplO [2d\]: as black, maybe you can defend, not sure
ExplO [2d\]: with those points as miai
padic [5k\]: I was getting nervous about white's moyo becoming too solid
padic [5k\]: ah
ExplO [2d\]: it looks safer
]
;W[ik]
;B[mm]C[padic [5k\]: black's seems more open
ExplO [2d\]: it both reduces white moyo and expand black moyo
Aphelion02 [6k\]: it feels like white is losing abit like this
padic [5k\]: huh, oh, I saw this as good for white
Aphelion02 [6k\]: white feels a tad over concentrated?
Aphelion02 [6k\]: k4, j9, g9
ExplO [2d\]: I don't know who is better here
ExplO [2d\]: black has some weakness in his moyo, but he will keep quite a lot of territory
]))
(;W[ac]
;B[bd]C[ExplO [2d\]: you lose this endgame
ExplO [2d\]: yes but
])
(;W[fi]
;B[bd]
;W[ij]C[Aphelion02 [6k\]: doh
Aphelion02 [6k\]: man i am so myopic
ExplO [2d\]: I'm not saying black should play this way
ExplO [2d\]: but if he does, it's great for you
]))
(;B[qe]
;W[pf]
;B[nd]
;W[qi]C[padic [5k\]: I chose that direction because of k17
Aphelion02 [6k\]: yea i expected this
ExplO [2d\]: this is better than the game
ExplO [2d\]: yes but r9 makes it akward
]))
(;W[er]
(;B[cs]C[Aphelion02 [6k\]: ahh
]
(;W[es])
(;W[bp]
;B[br]
(;W[dn]C[ExplO [2d\]: very small life
ExplO [2d\]: the 4 points in the corner are not worth the influence
padic [5k\]: yeah, good for white.. not that far from the game
Shadonra [1d\]: e6 seems to kill the stones outright
Aphelion02 [6k\]: oh
])
(;W[en]
;B[dn]
;W[dm]
;B[eo]C[ExplO [2d\]: really?
Shadonra [1d\]: hane
]
;W[fo]
;B[fn]
;W[em]
;B[fp]
;W[go]
;B[ep]
;W[gq]
;B[gp]
(;W[ho])
(;W[hp]
;B[ho]
;W[gn]
;B[hq]
;W[ip]C[ExplO [2d\]: not captured yet
Shadonra [1d\]: hm, damn
]))))
(;B[cn]
;W[dn]
;B[bn]
;W[eo]C[Aphelion02 [6k\]: XD
ExplO [2d\]: white is fine
])))
(;B[cn]C[ExplO [2d\]: c6 is the only move here
ExplO [2d\]: you can look at the variations in joseki dictionnaries
padic [5k\]: hm, okay.. I just knew that c3 was supposed to work but couldn't remember how
]))
(;B[bh]C[Aphelion02 [6k\]: yea usually when i play b18 it turns out like this
ExplO [2d\]: it's also painful
Aphelion02 [6k\]: so i like it
Shadonra [1d\]: true
Aphelion02 [6k\]: but i didn't see that jump before
]))
(;B[fd]C[Aphelion02 [6k\]: ahh
ExplO [2d\]: black can probably jump here
ExplO [2d\]: so black is satisfied
]))
(;W[dd]
;B[de]
;W[fd]C[Aphelion02 [6k\]: d16?
]
;B[bh]
;W[ic]C[ExplO [2d\]: yes
]))
(;B[dd]C[ExplO [2d\]: here is possible too
padic [5k\]: I'm always nervous about b17
]
;W[bc]
;B[ec]
;W[cd]
;B[db]
;W[cc]
;B[ee]C[padic [5k\]: yeah, I've seen that one.. just looks so hard to know what to do with it
ExplO [2d\]: possible too
Aphelion02 [6k\]: i like this for black
]
;W[eb]
;B[fb]
;W[da]
;B[fc]C[ExplO [2d\]: black is not bad here
]))
(;B[po]C[Aphelion02 [6k\]:
ExplO [2d\]: usually here
padic [5k\]: hm, okay
ExplO [2d\]: better aji
ExplO [2d\]: white can invade at r7 but you weakness is clear
]))[/sgf-full]

Araban wrote:

Magicwand wrote:

Araban wrote:I disagree with both Magicwand and SoDesuNe here. The keima has been played professionally plenty of times, and unless Takemiya is a hypocrite, then what SoDesuNe makes no sense because he is the one who uses it the most:

yes you are correct that takameya (masaki?) has played that move many times.
i remember when i used to review professional's game. 20 years ago.

BUT! takameya was a radical who was willing to try new ideas.
if it is a good move why aren't professional today not playing such move?
what i felt about that move when i experiminted on my game was.... akward.
it has a weak spots and very hard to fix.
on some games it might be appropriate but i felt that on a normal opening it is sub joseki. and i bet many professionals feel that way about that move.

just because few professionals experimented a move doesnt mean it is a good move.

The answer is quite simple actually: the problem is that today most professionals aren't even willing to try the san-ren-sei, so the opportunity to even set up the opening for the keima is severely restricted. Unless you're willing to extend your argument to say that the san-ren-sei is bad (which is a bold statement), then the argument doesn't hold much ground when the conditional requirement for the keima is a specific opening that is also rare today. Most professionals play territorially and strive to win rather than try bold ideas, but I think the handful of games where we do see professionals use it is more than enough for amateurs at our level to consider. And as I wrote in my earlier thread, it isn't just Takemiya who played that move and I showed games from other pros who have also used it.

i will make this argument.
how many games from takamiya's career he played that awkward move? answer is not too many. i only can recall 2 from the games that i can recall.
and i bet he experimented with that move less than 5 times.
now how many games did he answer other ways... too many games. also that awkward move came from his earlier career only.
he stopped playing because he felt that is is easier to win with other moves. ENLIGHTMENT!

yes i even recall some korean professionals tried that move. does that mean it is correct?
i remember see some experimental moves by professionals that is off the wall 5-5 , 6-6 and many others. does that make them right?

i am sure you feel the weakness of that move when you play them. yes it has some potental to make your opponent think and make mistakes.
but bottom line IT IS SUB JOSEKY.

Aphelion, the fuseki you used was very interesting, especially your choice in pincers. I really need to vary mine up, maybe I should try mixing it up a bit... Your two-space high in the top left seems intriguing. Thanks for posting the game.

The two-space high pincer against the low approach seems like one of the most popular plays by professionals, but I haven't reviewed many games from the 21st century so I couldn't tell you if this is still the case. It's definitely a strong move though.