Life In 19x19

Posted: **Tue May 25, 2010 8:53 pm**

Magicwand wrote:Nikolas73 : FYI
P14 will work at kyu level but if you play against stronger player you will not be successful.
you will have to feel why it is a bad move yourself so i am just telling you the answer.
when you feel that P14 is a bad move you may be 1D level certified.

Hmm, you think so? I considered P16, R12 and O17, but they seemed a tad too territorial for a sanrensei opening. Well, I'll think about it, thanks for the tip..

Posted: **Wed May 26, 2010 2:20 am**

What I heard is, with such a Keima you're leaving only weaknesses behind.
Of course you'll scare a lot of weaker players, because we tend to overestimate Moyos but in the end this Keima can easily be cut when White approaches the other side. If you defend, White has the chance to develop one side and thus might be able to chase your corner stones, because the Keima didn't give you a base.
A complicated position, indeed, but with proper fighting skills and reading it is bad for Black (in this example).

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ ------------------ $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . a . . . . . | $$ X . . . b . X . . . | $$ . . . . . c . . . . | $$ . . . . . 1 . O . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

The proper Moyo-move (Takemiya) for Black in this example would be 'c'. A Kosumi cannot be cut.

Nikolas73 wrote:[...] but they seemed a tad too territorial for a sanrensei opening

As far as I understand the San-Ren-Sei, there's nothing wrong with taking territory, when your opponent approaches/attacks/invades you. This is in my opinion the actual idea behind this opening.

Posted: **Wed May 26, 2010 3:01 am**

I disagree with both Magicwand and SoDesuNe here. The keima has been played professionally plenty of times, and unless Takemiya is a hypocrite, then what SoDesuNe makes no sense because he is the one who uses it the most:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc Takemiya M. as B vs. Ishida Y. $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc Takemiya M. as B vs. Rin K. $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc Takemiya M. as B vs. Yata N. $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . 2 . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . 1 . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

And other professionals have played it of course, to list a few in the past...:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc Onada C. vs. Kitani M. as B $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc Kubomatsu K. vs. Go S. as B $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

...and the present:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc Dong Y. vs. Li K. $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc Liu J. vs. Luo X. as B $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

So if it's fine by the likes to Takemiya Masaki, Kitani Minoru, Go Seigen, Luo Xihe, and more...then it's fine by me.

And in response to Magicwand's post to Nikolas...when you feel the move is bad, and then fine again, you may be 5d certified

.

Posted: **Wed May 26, 2010 3:05 am**

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc Takemiya M. as B vs. Rin K. $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

G14?? No wonder everyone loves this guy

Posted: **Wed May 26, 2010 3:08 am**

topazg wrote:
$$Wc Takemiya M. as B vs. Rin K.
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . . |
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$$ ---------------------------------------
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Takemiya M. as B vs. Rin K. $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
G14?? No wonder everyone loves this guy

Yes, it's a move I need to try more often to open my mind.

Oddly I think of a Vulture from SC whenever I see it (you can kind of see it from the shape). And like the Vulture it's light, nimble, and if you try to exploit it too quickly you might get a Spider Mine to the face

.

Posted: **Wed May 26, 2010 3:18 am**

Ha ha ha, okay I'll try to refrain from naming professionals, if I am not familiar with all their ("special") moves ^^

Thanks anyway, I learnt something!

Posted: **Wed May 26, 2010 4:45 am**

Araban wrote:
topazg wrote:
$$Wc Takemiya M. as B vs. Rin K.
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ ---------------------------------------
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Takemiya M. as B vs. Rin K. $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
G14?? No wonder everyone loves this guy
Yes, it's a move I need to try more often to open my mind.

Oddly I think of a Vulture from SC whenever I see it (you can kind of see it from the shape). And like the Vulture it's light, nimble, and if you try to exploit it too quickly you might get a Spider Mine to the face .

Something's wrong here. Black has made 7 moves, but White only 5.

Posted: **Wed May 26, 2010 5:11 am**

prokofiev wrote:Something's wrong here. Black has made 7 moves, but White only 5.

Yep, forgot a move. Edited.

Posted: **Wed May 26, 2010 5:27 am**

Araban wrote:I disagree with both Magicwand and SoDesuNe here. The keima has been played professionally plenty of times, and unless Takemiya is a hypocrite, then what SoDesuNe makes no sense because he is the one who uses it the most:

yes you are correct that takameya (masaki?) has played that move many times.
i remember when i used to review professional's game. 20 years ago.

BUT! takameya was a radical who was willing to try new ideas.
if it is a good move why aren't professional today not playing such move?
what i felt about that move when i experiminted on my game was.... akward.
it has a weak spots and very hard to fix.
on some games it might be appropriate but i felt that on a normal opening it is sub joseki. and i bet many professionals feel that way about that move.

just because few professionals experimented a move doesnt mean it is a good move.

Posted: **Wed May 26, 2010 5:44 am**

Magicwand wrote:
Araban wrote:I disagree with both Magicwand and SoDesuNe here. The keima has been played professionally plenty of times, and unless Takemiya is a hypocrite, then what SoDesuNe makes no sense because he is the one who uses it the most:
yes you are correct that takameya (masaki?) has played that move many times.
i remember when i used to review professional's game. 20 years ago.

BUT! takameya was a radical who was willing to try new ideas.
if it is a good move why aren't professional today not playing such move?
what i felt about that move when i experiminted on my game was.... akward.
it has a weak spots and very hard to fix.
on some games it might be appropriate but i felt that on a normal opening it is sub joseki. and i bet many professionals feel that way about that move.

just because few professionals experimented a move doesnt mean it is a good move.

The answer is quite simple actually: the problem is that today most professionals aren't even willing to try the san-ren-sei, so the opportunity to even set up the opening for the keima is severely restricted. Unless you're willing to extend your argument to say that the san-ren-sei is bad (which is a bold statement), then the argument doesn't hold much ground when the conditional requirement for the keima is a specific opening that is also rare today. Most professionals play territorially and strive to win rather than try bold ideas, but I think the handful of games where we do see professionals use it is more than enough for amateurs at our level to consider. And as I wrote in my earlier thread, it isn't just Takemiya who played that move and I showed games from other pros who have also used it.

Posted: **Wed May 26, 2010 5:57 am**

To me, it makes a lot of intuitive sense as a move. Sure, it leaves weaknesses the other side that White can poke holes at, but Black has not just the hoshi on the edge, but in the other corner too, so he shouldn't be frightened of White doing this. It looks complicated, and a number of ways it could go wrong could be disastrously so (and the same in the other direction), but that's how professionals play a lot of the time, dancing along the edge of a very sharp sword.

Posted: **Wed May 26, 2010 3:12 pm**

Here is game 2 between me and Padic. Padic was Black and I took White. Result is W+R, so I lead our series 2-0.
Game 3 will be tbh, but possibly around 19:00CEST tomorrow. I will post exact time before the match.

Posted: **Wed May 26, 2010 3:23 pm**

Araban wrote:
Magicwand wrote:
Araban wrote:I disagree with both Magicwand and SoDesuNe here. The keima has been played professionally plenty of times, and unless Takemiya is a hypocrite, then what SoDesuNe makes no sense because he is the one who uses it the most:
yes you are correct that takameya (masaki?) has played that move many times.
i remember when i used to review professional's game. 20 years ago.

BUT! takameya was a radical who was willing to try new ideas.
if it is a good move why aren't professional today not playing such move?
what i felt about that move when i experiminted on my game was.... akward.
it has a weak spots and very hard to fix.
on some games it might be appropriate but i felt that on a normal opening it is sub joseki. and i bet many professionals feel that way about that move.

just because few professionals experimented a move doesnt mean it is a good move.
The answer is quite simple actually: the problem is that today most professionals aren't even willing to try the san-ren-sei, so the opportunity to even set up the opening for the keima is severely restricted. Unless you're willing to extend your argument to say that the san-ren-sei is bad (which is a bold statement), then the argument doesn't hold much ground when the conditional requirement for the keima is a specific opening that is also rare today. Most professionals play territorially and strive to win rather than try bold ideas, but I think the handful of games where we do see professionals use it is more than enough for amateurs at our level to consider. And as I wrote in my earlier thread, it isn't just Takemiya who played that move and I showed games from other pros who have also used it.

i will make this argument.
how many games from takamiya's career he played that awkward move? answer is not too many. i only can recall 2 from the games that i can recall.
and i bet he experimented with that move less than 5 times.
now how many games did he answer other ways... too many games. also that awkward move came from his earlier career only.
he stopped playing because he felt that is is easier to win with other moves. ENLIGHTMENT!

yes i even recall some korean professionals tried that move. does that mean it is correct?
i remember see some experimental moves by professionals that is off the wall 5-5 , 6-6 and many others. does that make them right?

i am sure you feel the weakness of that move when you play them. yes it has some potental to make your opponent think and make mistakes.
but bottom line IT IS SUB JOSEKY.

Posted: **Wed May 26, 2010 3:30 pm**

Aphelion, the fuseki you used was very interesting, especially your choice in pincers. I really need to vary mine up, maybe I should try mixing it up a bit... Your two-space high in the top left seems intriguing. Thanks for posting the game.

Posted: **Wed May 26, 2010 3:54 pm**

The two-space high pincer against the low approach seems like one of the most popular plays by professionals, but I haven't reviewed many games from the 21st century so I couldn't tell you if this is still the case. It's definitely a strong move though.

Life In 19x19

2nd Kuchinashi Tournament (4k-6k)

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Re: 2nd Kuchinashi Tournament (4k-6k)

Re: 2nd Kuchinashi Tournament (4k-6k)

Re: 2nd Kuchinashi Tournament (4k-6k)

Re: 2nd Kuchinashi Tournament (4k-6k)

Re: 2nd Kuchinashi Tournament (4k-6k)

Re: 2nd Kuchinashi Tournament (4k-6k)

Re: 2nd Kuchinashi Tournament (4k-6k)

Re: 2nd Kuchinashi Tournament (4k-6k)

Re: 2nd Kuchinashi Tournament (4k-6k)

Re: 2nd Kuchinashi Tournament (4k-6k)

Re: 2nd Kuchinashi Tournament (4k-6k)

Re: 2nd Kuchinashi Tournament (4k-6k)

Re: 2nd Kuchinashi Tournament (4k-6k)

Re: 2nd Kuchinashi Tournament (4k-6k)