Life In 19x19

hailthorn011 wrote:

Well, going back over what I said, I highly doubt this would disrupt other events for 2 primary reasons.

1. The bulk of the tournament would be the prelims which would take place online.

2. If the primary tournament takes place at the US Go Congress (like this year), the players would already be there.

Neither of these reasons are particularly persuasive.

First and foremost, why not use this process to support existing events? Having just ruined my holiday weekend running the Maryland Open, it was great to have 6 and 7 dan players from as far away as California, Canada and New York attend my event and make it worthy qualifier with a worthy champion. I confess the strong player and general dan level turnout exceeded my expectations, and I appreciate the opportunity and confidence the AGA placed in my event. I was correspondingly disapointed by the number of kyu players however - this event is for everyone - in fact, it would have been nice to see you haithorne (as it was nice to see Mef - whose story of his truncated appearance would be worthy of comment, but I will leave it up to him to do so....)

Second - an online tournament does disrupt the local events - even if they do not directly conflict - people have only so many free weekends and travel cost and general inertia give online events an advantage.

Third - Strong players at the Congress make for a strong US Open field - and this is disrupted if you take out dozens of the strongest players.

A pro system cannot be sustained without go players to support it with interest AND money. This money may come from sponsors, but sponsors will only invest, if they think there is value in their investment. I am not sure folks playing and watching online for free count, or at least count fully. The population sponsors want and therefore our pros are going to need are the ones that spend the time, gas, hotel bills and entrance fees to actually attend events and make there fandom apparent and not virtual.

HKA wrote:

hailthorn011 wrote:

Well, going back over what I said, I highly doubt this would disrupt other events for 2 primary reasons.

1. The bulk of the tournament would be the prelims which would take place online.

2. If the primary tournament takes place at the US Go Congress (like this year), the players would already be there.

Neither of these reasons are particularly persuasive.

First and foremost, why not use this process to support existing events? Having just ruined my holiday weekend running the Maryland Open, it was great to have 6 and 7 dan players from as far away as California, Canada and New York attend my event and make it worthy qualifier with a worthy champion. I confess the strong player and general dan level turnout exceeded my expectations, and I appreciate the opportunity and confidence the AGA placed in my event. I was correspondingly disapointed by the number of kyu players however - this event is for everyone - in fact, it would have been nice to see you haithorne (as it was nice to see Mef - whose story of his truncated appearance would be worthy of comment, but I will leave it up to him to do so....)

Second - an online tournament does disrupt the local events - even if they do not directly conflict - people have only so many free weekends and travel cost and general inertia give online events an advantage.

Third - Strong players at the Congress make for a strong US Open field - and this is disrupted if you take out dozens of the strongest players.

A pro system cannot be sustained without go players to support it with interest AND money. This money may come from sponsors, but sponsors will only invest, if they think there is value in their investment. I am not sure folks playing and watching online for free count, or at least count fully. The population sponsors want and therefore our pros are going to need are the ones that spend the time, gas, hotel bills and entrance fees to actually attend events and make there fandom apparent and not virtual.

Prelims usually aren't huge anyway. It's the main tournament that is the main thing, and that would be available to people who attended the US Go Congress. Like I said, it was just an idea. And continuing that thought process, I also said I had no idea about the inner workings of these things.

I strongly believe the pro exam should be separate, though. Maybe I'm wrong, but that's just my opinion.

RobertT wrote:Though I'm not 100% sure how they figure out who is seeded and I'm not sure who the seeded players are. I'm not even sure the players themselves know if they are seeded or not

If the seeded players don't know they are seeded, maybe some of them have already played in qualifiers. In which case, if they lost, would they lose their seed? That doesn't make any sense. Maybe seeding is the wrong term. Maybe what's really going to happen is they are going to see who shows up in NC and try to track down other strong players there who are willing to fill out as much of the 16 as possible so there can be a proper-looking final tournament.

snorri wrote:If the seeded players don't know they are seeded, maybe some of them have already played in qualifiers. In which case, if they lost, would they lose their seed? That doesn't make any sense. Maybe seeding is the wrong term. Maybe what's really going to happen is they are going to see who shows up in NC and try to track down other strong players there who are willing to fill out as much of the 16 as possible so there can be a proper-looking final tournament.

This has been exactly what I've seen for the North American Masters Tournaments previously.

hailthorn011 wrote:
Prelims usually aren't huge anyway. It's the main tournament that is the main thing, and that would be available to people who attended the US Go Congress. Like I said, it was just an idea. And continuing that thought process, I also said I had no idea about the inner workings of these things.

I strongly believe the pro exam should be separate, though. Maybe I'm wrong, but that's just my opinion.

It's a time issue. A serious tournament (even "just a prelim") will require players commit at least a full weekend to participate, whether they are traveling to Maryland or playing online. As most people have only so much time they are willing to dedicate to go, having to commit a weekend to an online go qualifier will make them much less likely to play in a regular tournament that falls around the same time. I've heard that this has already become an issue for tournament attendance near schools participating in the online Collegiate Go League (which organizes matches between schools every other weekend). There's a 50% chance your tournament collides with a CGL match, and even if it doesn't college students only have so many weekend hours they can give up. The result is fewer college kids at your tournament.

The effect on including the pro qualifier as part of congress would perhaps be even more devastating. Currently the field of strong players has US Open in the morning, and North American Masters in the evening (or Strong Players' Open for those who don't qualify for NAMT). Adding a fourth strong players' tournament means you are guaranteed to completely gut the field of strong amateurs on at least one if not more of these tournaments.

As the current system stands, attending both the pro qualifier and congress involves doubling your time commitment (means taking two weeks out of your life instead of just one). Even being in the same place, I can't help but think that will have an effect on the turn out, two weeks of serious go tournaments is a lot of time, money, and effort.

Mef wrote:

hailthorn011 wrote:
Prelims usually aren't huge anyway. It's the main tournament that is the main thing, and that would be available to people who attended the US Go Congress. Like I said, it was just an idea. And continuing that thought process, I also said I had no idea about the inner workings of these things.

I strongly believe the pro exam should be separate, though. Maybe I'm wrong, but that's just my opinion.

It's a time issue. A serious tournament (even "just a prelim") will require players commit at least a full weekend to participate, whether they are traveling to Maryland or playing online. As most people have only so much time they are willing to dedicate to go, having to commit a weekend to an online go qualifier will make them much less likely to play in a regular tournament that falls around the same time. I've heard that this has already become an issue for tournament attendance near schools participating in the online Collegiate Go League (which organizes matches between schools every other weekend). There's a 50% chance your tournament collides with a CGL match, and even if it doesn't college students only have so many weekend hours they can give up. The result is fewer college kids at your tournament.

The effect on including the pro qualifier as part of congress would perhaps be even more devastating. Currently the field of strong players has US Open in the morning, and North American Masters in the evening (or Strong Players' Open for those who don't qualify for NAMT). Adding a fourth strong players' tournament means you are guaranteed to completely gut the field of strong amateurs on at least one if not more of these tournaments.

As the current system stands, attending both the pro qualifier and congress involves doubling your time commitment (means taking two weeks out of your life instead of just one). Even being in the same place, I can't help but think that will have an effect on the turn out, two weeks of serious go tournaments is a lot of time, money, and effort.

I still disagree with this system, but that's just my opinion.

So looking at the results so far, the strongest Amateurs not already in are Michael Chen, Eric Lui, Jie Li, and Yuan Zhou? I'll be curious to see how the tournament fills out. After that, I will be curious who then participates in North American Masters and US Open.

Also pro tournament not scheduled on http://www.gocongress.org/2012/tournaments?

RobertT wrote:I believe the way it works is 2 players from the cotsen, 1 from seattle, 1 from maryland then 7 from the tygem online qualifier. That makes 11. The last 5 will be filled by seeded players. The seeded players will be top ranking AGA and CGA amateurs. Though I'm not 100% sure how they figure out who is seeded and I'm not sure who the seeded players are. I'm not even sure the players themselves know if they are seeded or not

http://www.usgo.org/news/2012/05/maryla ... n-kgs-now/

This says two will qualify from online. It's not official however.

oren wrote:So looking at the results so far, the strongest Amateurs not already in are Michael Chen, Eric Lui, Jie Li, and Yuan Zhou? I'll be curious to see how the tournament fills out. After that, I will be curious who then participates in North American Masters and US Open.

Also pro tournament not scheduled on http://www.gocongress.org/2012/tournaments?

The pro tournament is the week prior ( 7/28 - 8/4), at the same time as the go symposium.

oren wrote:http://www.usgo.org/news/2012/05/maryla ... n-kgs-now/

This says two will qualify from online. It's not official however.

Personally I would guess that the number of qualifiers from the online tournament will depend on how many they get to sign up. If the tournament is really only 3 rounds, they could easily end up with 7 qualifiers. In fact, with the way to tournament appears to be set up, it could be very, very hard to get just 7 qualifiers. You will have the initial pool of anyone in the AGA who wants a pin, say you get 50 people, half eliminated in round 1. In Round 2, along with the 25 remaining you have 6d+ players who got a bye, lets say you have 5 more people* from this, bringing your current total to 30. That leaves us with 15 after round 2 elimination. Then you have 7 seeded players who have a free pass to round 3 that are added, bringing the total to 22, giving us 11 undefeated people in the end. Perhaps they will add additional rounds.


_{* I figure 5 people here, because the 7 seeded people for round 3 would come from this group already (so 12 total 6d+ amateur, not-already-qualified, AGA/CGA members who don't have other time commitments). At any rate, I wanted to use low side estimates for the whole thought exercise.}

Mef wrote:The pro tournament is the week prior ( 7/28 - 8/4), at the same time as the go symposium.

Do you have a link? I find it a bit odd to do that since man-power will be lower that week, but it shouldn't require much for a 16 person tournament. It just means all games may not be recorded.

Mef wrote: Personally I would guess that the number of qualifiers from the online tournament will depend on how many they get to sign up. If the tournament is really only 3 rounds, they could easily end up with 7 qualifiers. In fact, with the way to tournament appears to be set up, it could be very, very hard to get just 7 qualifiers. You will have the initial pool of anyone in the AGA who wants a pin, say you get 50 people, half eliminated in round 1. In Round 2, along with the 25 remaining you have 6d+ players who got a bye, lets say you have 5 more people* from this, bringing your current total to 30. That leaves us with 15 after round 2 elimination. Then you have 7 seeded players who have a free pass to round 3 that are added, bringing the total to 22, giving us 11 undefeated people in the end. Perhaps they will add additional rounds.

I agree that 2 is very strange. I just posted that link because it was the only source of info I could find. Also, your math assumes everyone in the running. I have been assuming the real preliminary will be limited to those with AGA greater than X.

oren wrote:

Mef wrote:The pro tournament is the week prior ( 7/28 - 8/4), at the same time as the go symposium.

Do you have a link? I find it a bit odd to do that since man-power will be lower that week, but it shouldn't require much for a 16 person tournament. It just means all games may not be recorded.

I'm sure I've read more about this somewhere, but right now the only link I can find is Tygem's page - http://www.tygembaduk.com/enews/news.as ... =1&seq=165

That mentions the main event will be 7/28-8/4

oren wrote:I agree that 2 is very strange. I just posted that link because it was the only source of info I could find. Also, your math assumes everyone in the running. I have been assuming the real preliminary will be limited to those with AGA greater than X.

That may be (and if they keep it at 3 rounds will likely be true). I was thinking the purpose of the prelim was to potentially allow anyone to qualify (as unlikely as it seems for most of us).

From a search on the AGA website:

These are players I don't have reason to believe are professionals or have left the US. Of course I'm not infallible about that.

Francis Meyer
Jie Li
Haifeng Liu *
Jing Yang
Yongfei Ge
Zhaonian (Michael) Chen
Jeffrey Wang *
Won Sik Lee *
Dae Hyuk Ko
Eric Lui
Zipei Feng *
Minshan Shou *

The * players are ones I know very little about. I didn't try and exclude people based on guesses about their interest. I also don't know how Canadian players will be handled.

A few players get a lot of attention, in part because they play so much, but it's really remarkable how many strong players there are out there.

oren wrote:

Mef wrote:The pro tournament is the week prior ( 7/28 - 8/4), at the same time as the go symposium.

Do you have a link?

yeah... there's no link (other than Mef's Tygem link).

and I'm rather ticked that the AGA won't post anything, and its been like pulling teeth to get any information at all.

some time back, I was asked to help, but given no information. I can't help with that.

Andy Liu and Gangsheng Shi became First AGA Profesionals.

http://www.tygembaduk.com/enews/news.as ... =1&seq=183

One American and one Canadian. Pretty damn cool. I wonder if I'll be able to catch them on Baduk TV.