Life In 19x19

Shaddy wrote:What do you have against the 4-4?

All things being equal the fact that under certain conditions one may be compelled to play 4-4 if for no good reason except to maintain inflated rankings of some players that have no other reference point than that is how they do it Japan.

SmoothOper wrote:All things being equal the fact that under certain conditions one may be compelled to play 4-4 if for no good reason except to maintain inflated rankings of some players that have no other reference point than that is how they do it Japan.

xed_over wrote:

...Did I get that right?

Excuse me Pwaldron but the reasoning you just have mentioned is in fact a cultural difference. Also Chinese parents believe that Go makes their children smarter, hence the large amount of children in Chinese go schools; top that off with large endorsements from the government to boost national pride and you have a strong program.

Why don't you just learn to play with 4-4 stones? IMO if you allow free handicaps, the handicap system actually breaks down: by putting down the stones in certain ways, Black actually has more of an advantage than he would with star point handicaps.

Shaddy wrote:Why don't you just learn to play with 4-4 stones? IMO if you allow free handicaps, the handicap system actually breaks down: by putting down the stones in certain ways, Black actually has more of an advantage than he would with star point handicaps.

Well, if you have a high ranking based on 4-4 handicaps, then it may be a little harsh when you have to play against people who have a high ranking based on free handicaps, but I wouldn't exactly call that "breaking" the handicap system as much as "inflated" handicaps .

SmoothOper wrote:Well, if you have a high ranking based on 4-4 handicaps, then it may be a little harsh when you have to play against people who have a high ranking based on free handicaps, but I wouldn't exactly call that "breaking" the handicap system as much as "inflated" handicaps .

Actually it would break the handicap system because your play style would affect how good you were at handicap go, and then normal logic surrounding handicaps would not apply.

This claim that the traditional handicap placement is responsible for the Japanese performance in international professional tournaments is clearly wrong for several reasons.

1. Pros don't play handicaps games against other pros.

2. All pros play 4-4 openings, some more frequently than others, but never-the-less they all play the move, even the Koreans and the Chinese. Check out on GoGoD how many times a corner 4-4 move is made by Chinese and Korean players. Takemiya, who won some international tournaments, almost always played 4-4 moves as Black and White.

3. Koreans play traditional star-point handicaps. So, by some people's reasoning, the Koreans should be weak

4. Because a person doesn't understand how to play with 4-4 point moves doesn't mean the moves are bad.

My rank is based almost entirely off of even games. I'm claiming that it's a lot harder to play against someone who's got two Chinese openings down on the board than if it were two sanrenseis instead. Also, no one has a high rank based on free handicaps.

gowan wrote:This claim that the traditional handicap placement is responsible for the Japanese performance in international professional tournaments is clearly wrong for several reasons.

1. Pros don't play handicaps games against other pros.

It matters how they train. If they train with 4-4 placement handicaps then get white against a Chinese handicap good luck.

gowan wrote:2. All pros play 4-4 openings, some more frequently than others, but never-the-less they all play the move, even the Koreans and the Chinese. Check out on GoGoD how many times a corner 4-4 move is made by Chinese and Korean players. Takemiya, who won some international tournaments, almost always played 4-4 moves as Black and White.

So at the moment the orthodox fuseki is dominating international play both Koreans and Chinese, I suggest you use orthodox fuseki placement handicaps, because well right now it is better.

gowan wrote:3. Koreans play traditional star-point handicaps. So, by some people's reasoning, the Koreans should be weak

Koreans didn't win this year, maybe they aren't as strong as they thought.

gowan wrote:4. Because a person doesn't understand how to play with 4-4 point moves doesn't mean the moves are bad.

I personally enjoy playing against the 4-4 point, I just don't want to have to play it myself, and in even games the nirensei openings aren't as useful as one might think.

SmoothOper wrote:...in head to head games the nirensei openings aren't as useful as one might think.

As opposed to 3-player games?

jdl wrote:

SmoothOper wrote:...in head to head games the nirensei openings aren't as useful as one might think.

As opposed to 3-player games?

Well I guess sometimes you could think of it as a meeting of the minds, but that would be giving jdl too much credit.

I think the handicap discussion has derailed this thread a bit.

SmoothOper wrote:Koreans didn't win this year, maybe they aren't as strong as they thought.

So pray tell what nationality is Baek Hongsuk, winner of this year's BC Card Cup?

oren wrote:I think the handicap discussion has derailed this thread a bit.

It's so obviously a troll that I don't know why people are even replying to it.

Uberdude wrote:

SmoothOper wrote:Koreans didn't win this year, maybe they aren't as strong as they thought.

So pray tell what nationality is Baek Hongsuk, winner of this year's BC Card Cup?

But China swept Korea at the Tengen and Meijin:

http://gogameguru.com/chinas-sweeps-201 ... in-tengen/