Life In 19x19

I think it's irrelevant whether annihilist is happy with swearing in front of him, his family or his child, with respect to KGS policy. What's important is whether those responsible for designing the rules and policies for KGS feel that is appropriate for a family environment. If they feel it isn't, and wish to keep swearing out of KGS, they are completely within their rights to do so. If people feel unhappy with that, they can either find somewhere else, or restrain themselves from swearing anyway.

If KGS feel their policies are appropriate with respect to swearing, it doesn't matter whether I or any other individual agrees - it's their server, not mine.

Topazg, I think it's relevant because I'm trying to understand why Annihilist (and apparently many others) don't understand it.
If Annihilist is completely OK with strangers swearing to his family, it would explain something to me.
OTOH, if a Go server forbids the term "tesuji", and Annihilist has never understood why, then I would side with him instead,
even though I know it is within that server's right to forbid the term "tesuji".

EdLee wrote:Topazg, I think it's relevant because I'm trying to understand why Annihilist (and apparently many others) don't understand it.
If Annihilist is completely OK with strangers swearing to his family, it would explain something to me.

I would take his latest post as saying he wouldn't have a problem with it

topazg wrote:I would take his latest post as saying he wouldn't have a problem with it

Right, I'm curious to find out.

And if he is completely NOT OK with strangers swearing to his family, but simultaneously doesn't understand the policy,
then, it would explain something... else to me.

There is a big advertisement billboard in my city that has WTF in big letters, and (wow, they're fantastic!) in small latters. It will be eternally hilarious to me that this can get you banned on KGS but is ok in my very conservative town.

badukJr wrote:There is a big advertisement billboard in my city that has WTF in big letters, and (wow, they're fantastic!) in small latters. It will be eternally hilarious to me that this can get you banned on KGS but is ok in my very conservative town.

Yes, acronyms are a tricky one anyway. I use the term FUBAR every now and again, which has very profane origins but is more routinely used (at least in the places I've worked) to portray the same meaning but in a non profane manner. Is there a semantic difference between the expansion of the acronym and simply using it as if it was a new 5 letter word in its own right? I don't know, maybe, maybe not I know I view them differently, but others may not.

EdLee wrote:

Annihilist wrote:I have never understood this. Maybe it's just me, but really, it's nothing to get worked up about.

Some people have mentioned (a) the analogy of strangers coming to your home and swearing at the dinner table.
I seem to remember some people not liking that analogy.
So, another analogy is (b) strangers swearing at the next dinner table in a restaurant.
A third analogy is (c) Go members swearing at a Go club, say, the Seattle Go Center.

As Doug mentioned, I'm sure there are restaurants and Go clubs where swearing is OK.
But if a particular restaurant or Go club does not tolerate swearing, it is also their choice.

(BTW, I dunno the SGC's policy on swearing.)

So, Annihilist, is it fair to say you're completely comfortable to bring your family (including little children)
to a restaurant or a Go club where strangers can swear left and right?
In particular, you're comfortable with a stranger swearing to your spouse or your child?
If you are, then I don't know what to say.

My point is that I see nothing intrinsically wrong with just the words themselves. Alone, they mean nothing. So yes, I don't see anything wrong with swearing to or at anyone. In a context where they are offensive, i.e. aggressive behaviour or whatever, I would take issue, but I would take more issue with the attitude to which the words contribute, than the words themselves.

Basically, I don't think there's anything wrong with swearing, and I think it's silly and juvenile to get so worked up about something trivial like word usage. They're just words, and it's our attachment to their connotations which renders them "profane" and "unacceptable". As a society, I think we should let go of such feelings.

To go through your examples, though:

a) Firstly why would a stranger come to my dinner table? Chances are if I invited them I already knew them. But that aside, no I don't see anything wrong with that particularly. As I have just said, the behaviour and attitude is what I dislike, which can be present with or without swear words. Additionally, I see no harm or danger in swearing, at all, so I don't see why they are an issue.On principle, I'd prefer people to be at ease and able to speak their mind honestly.

b) Same principle. With the added factor of being in a public place, though. I know people swear, and if I go out in public, I am aware there is a risk of being exposed to such language, and I willingly take that risk. No one has a right to tell others what they cannot say, I don't think. So if you go into a public place, you have to bear the consequences, which may involve (shock horror) hearing a few swear words.

c) I don't see why this is any different to the other two.

Am I completely comfortable with bringing children to a public area where people are allowed to swear? Short answer is yes. Why shouldn't I be?

Anyway, I hope this helps you to understand where I'm coming from in this regard.

Edit: If you want to set up a group, like a go club or any sort of club, and kick people out for swearing, that's fine. It's your group, your rules. But I won't think very highly of you.

Annihilist wrote:I have never understood this. Maybe it's just me, but really, it's nothing to get worked up about.

You are certainly entitled to your opinion, but it's not shared by the developer and admins on KGS. We expect you and other players to respect our expectations of behaviour regarding bad language.

topazg wrote:Yes, acronyms are a tricky one anyway.

The excuses for swearing are often quite amusing.

For example, it's relatively common for peope to phonetically spell out a bad word, then be shocked, shocked that it could be somehow interpreted as a bad word itself.

Different languages feature in excuse-making. For example, the f-word may be rude in English, but in the person's nominated language, it actually means "beautiful sunset" or whatever. (There's a similar situation when a person uses racial or ethnic slurs, then justifies it by saying that they're half-whatever.)

Another favourite is that the opponent actually forced the swearing to take place. By escaping or whatever, the swearing was an involuntary reaction and was impossible to prevent.

I appreciate the honesty of people who simply say that they made a mistake and regret it.

Someone who thinks there is nothing special about swear words would of course be comfortable not using them. You might get banned for saying "KGS is a pile of dog feces", but it won't be for swearing.

Annihilist wrote:

BigDoug wrote:... bad language can be quite unpleasant.

I have never understood this. Maybe it's just me, but really, it's nothing to get worked up about.

Its usually not appropriate in the workplace environment either, for similar reasons that BigDoug mentions -- unpleasant.

Annihilist wrote:Am I completely comfortable with bringing children to a public area where people are allowed to swear? Short answer is yes. Why shouldn't I be?
Anyway, I hope this helps you to understand where I'm coming from in this regard.
Edit: If you want to set up a group, like a go club or any sort of club, and kick people out for swearing, that's fine. It's your group, your rules. But I won't think very highly of you.

Yes, this helps me understand where you're coming from, thank you.

LocoRon wrote:

Annihilist wrote:

DeFlow wrote:I've just been kicked from KGS for swearing once

Why would anyone get kicked for swearing, of all things? Is it really KGS policy, just in case we have any naïve children playing go?

Yes. I've even seen someone warned for using the acronym "wtf".

So the admins don't know that it means Worse Than Failure? :p

xed_over wrote:

Annihilist wrote:

BigDoug wrote:... bad language can be quite unpleasant.

I have never understood this. Maybe it's just me, but really, it's nothing to get worked up about.

Its usually not appropriate in the workplace environment either, for similar reasons that BigDoug mentions -- unpleasant.

The only reason they remain "unpleasant" is because of our attachment to the idea that they are unpleasant. We invented the idea that they are unpleasant - and likewise, we can overcome it, and I believe we should.

Annihilist wrote:The only reason they remain "unpleasant" is because of our attachment to the idea that they are unpleasant. We invented the idea that they are unpleasant - and likewise, we can overcome it, and I believe we should.

I think I ought to observe this thread only after this comment lest I be drawn into something unwise. We (speaking humble for human society as a whole) have chosen a lot of actions to be unpleasant - to take extreme examples we might include mass genocide. Society, as a rule, makes these decisions based on some reasoning and logic, normally designed (even if subconsciously) to promote a more healthy and happy (or pleasant I guess) society to live in. By respecting that, everyone seems happier.

The alternative is to just simply make up our own rules piecemeal, which is pretty much the definition of anarchy - most people prefer not to do this.

To take your example, when swearing is actually meant to be offensive or insulting to someone, you say you treat it quite differently (presumably because of the intent and hurt behind it). This however is simply because you have attached this as being an unacceptable form of swearing. You have every right to do this, and I won't think less of you for it (partly because it's your right to do whatever you like, but mostly because I agree with your stance) - likewise, if you chose to feel that all forms of swearing should be considered unacceptable, I won't think less of you for that either.

At the end of the day, you create your internal rules over acceptable behaviour for yourself and for others, and get unhappy/angry/bademotion when people break it. So does everyone else, this is human nature. If you swear around someone else who has problems with it, they've just chosen different rules for acceptable behaviour than you have. You can either respect that and not swear around them (not because you agree with their view, but because you don't want to cause unnecessary unhappiness), or you can say "screw other people's attitudes, I'm right and if they're offended it's their problem because there's nothing wrong with what I'm doing". Both are completely up to you, just don't be surprised if you upset more people with the latter than the former.