Re: #215: The Intrepid vs. drishti: Deep in the Endgame Weed
Posted: Tue Apr 30, 2013 5:14 pm
by drishti
$$Bcm13 Prisoners: , $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O . . O . . . . O . . . . O X X X . | $$ | . X O O X O . O O X O O . . O X O X . | $$ | . X X X X O . O X X O X O O X X O O . | $$ | . . . . . . O . O X X X X O X . . . . | $$ | . . . X X X X O O O X . X O X . O O . | $$ | . . X O O O X . . . X X O O X . . X . | $$ | . . X O X X O O O X . . O X . . X . . | $$ | . . X O O . O . O X X X O X X X O . . | $$ | . . . X O O X O X X O O X X O X . . . | $$ | . . . X . O X X X O O X O O . X O X . | $$ | . . . . 1 . X O X O . X . X . X . O . | $$ | . . X . . X X . O . . . . . O X X . . | $$ | . 3 X . X O X O O O . . . . O O X X . | $$ | . 2 X O X O O X X O O O O . . X O O . | $$ | . . O X X O X X . X X X O X X X X O . | $$ | . . O X O O X X X X . . . X O X O . . | $$ | . . O O . O X . X O O O O X O X O . . | $$ | . . . O . O X . X O . . . O O O O . . | $$ ---------------------------------------
[go]$$Bcm13 Prisoners: , $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O . . O . . . . O . . . . O X X X . | $$ | . X O O X O . O O X O O . . O X O X . | $$ | . X X X X O . O X X O X O O X X O O . | $$ | . . . . . . O . O X X X X O X . . . . | $$ | . . . X X X X O O O X . X O X . O O . | $$ | . . X O O O X . . . X X O O X . . X . | $$ | . . X O X X O O O X . . O X . . X . . | $$ | . . X O O . O . O X X X O X X X O . . | $$ | . . . X O O X O X X O O X X O X . . . | $$ | . . . X . O X X X O O X O O . X O X . | $$ | . . . . 1 . X O X O . X . X . X . O . | $$ | . . X . . X X . O . . . . . O X X . . | $$ | . 3 X . X O X O O O . . . . O O X X . | $$ | . 2 X O X O O X X O O O O . . X O O . | $$ | . . O X X O X X . X X X O X X X X O . | $$ | . . O X O O X X X X . . . X O X O . . | $$ | . . O O . O X . X O O O O X O X O . . | $$ | . . . O . O X . X O . . . O O O O . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Re: #215: The Intrepid vs. drishti: Deep in the Endgame Weed
Posted: Tue Apr 30, 2013 6:38 pm
by mitsun
The Intrepid wrote:@Bill Spight
I'm not entirely convinced, yet, that the point should not be counted. I need to think about this a bit.
If we consider the hane plus solid connection, instead of the hanging connection, then this question does not arise and the calculation is symmetric and simple. One could argue that the hanging connection is superior in this position, precisely because it offers the opportunity to make an extra point later, even if the probability is low that it will actually be profitable to do so. When the situation arises, it is a one-point reverse-sente play, which might conceivably be the best move on the board, and hence should have some value. Trimming this possibility off of the result tree is not quite fair. However it is also not fair to give it the same weight as the other branch on the tree, which is likely to be sente at that stage of the game.
Re: #215: The Intrepid vs. drishti: Deep in the Endgame Weed
Posted: Tue Apr 30, 2013 7:29 pm
by The Intrepid
$$Bcm15 Prisoners: , $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O . . O . . . . O . . . . O X X X . | $$ | . X O O X O . O O X O O . . O X O X . | $$ | . X X X X O . O X X O X O O X X O O . | $$ | . . . . . . O . O X X X X O X . . . . | $$ | . . . X X X X O O O X . X O X . O O . | $$ | . . X O O O X . . . X X O O X . . X . | $$ | . . X O X X O O O X . . O X . . X . . | $$ | . . X O O . O . O X X X O X X X O . . | $$ | . . . X O O X O X X O O X X O X . . . | $$ | . . . X . O X X X O O X O O . X O X . | $$ | . . . . X . X O X O . X . X . X . O . | $$ | . . X . . X X . O . . . . . O X X . . | $$ | . 1 X . X O X O O O . . . . O O X X . | $$ | . O X O X O O X X O O O O . . X O O . | $$ | 2 . O X X O X X . X X X O X X X X O . | $$ | . . O X O O X X X X . . . X O X O . . | $$ | . . O O . O X . X O O O O X O X O . . | $$ | . . . O . O X . X O . . . O O O O . . | $$ ---------------------------------------
[go]$$Bcm15 Prisoners: , $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O . . O . . . . O . . . . O X X X . | $$ | . X O O X O . O O X O O . . O X O X . | $$ | . X X X X O . O X X O X O O X X O O . | $$ | . . . . . . O . O X X X X O X . . . . | $$ | . . . X X X X O O O X . X O X . O O . | $$ | . . X O O O X . . . X X O O X . . X . | $$ | . . X O X X O O O X . . O X . . X . . | $$ | . . X O O . O . O X X X O X X X O . . | $$ | . . . X O O X O X X O O X X O X . . . | $$ | . . . X . O X X X O O X O O . X O X . | $$ | . . . . X . X O X O . X . X . X . O . | $$ | . . X . . X X . O . . . . . O X X . . | $$ | . 1 X . X O X O O O . . . . O O X X . | $$ | . O X O X O O X X O O O O . . X O O . | $$ | 2 . O X X O X X . X X X O X X X X O . | $$ | . . O X O O X X X X . . . X O X O . . | $$ | . . O O . O X . X O O O O X O X O . . | $$ | . . . O . O X . X O . . . O O O O . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
I had a brilliant idea. I know now how to win this game! (Drumroll, please.) Verbal misdirection. That's right, verbal misdirection! My attempt to live on the right side will fail miserably; that much is clear. Thus, the only way left for me to win this game is if my opponent resigns prematurely. However, the only way this could happen is he falls prey to my powers of persuasion. It's going to be awesome! Should I do it?
Re: #215: The Intrepid vs. drishti: Deep in the Endgame Weed
Posted: Tue Apr 30, 2013 7:39 pm
by bgrieco
@The Intrepid
Isn't this the whole point of playing Go against a human instead of a computer ?
Re: #215: The Intrepid vs. drishti: Deep in the Endgame Weed
Posted: Wed May 01, 2013 5:57 am
by drishti
$$Bcm15 Prisoners: , $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O . . O . . . . O . . . . O X X X . | $$ | . X O O X O . O O X O O . . O X O X . | $$ | . X X X X O . O X X O X O O X X O O . | $$ | . . . . . . O . O X X X X O X . . . . | $$ | . . . X X X X O O O X . X O X . O O . | $$ | . . X O O O X . . . X X O O X . . X . | $$ | . . X O X X O O O X . . O X . . X . . | $$ | . . X O O . O . O X X X O X X X O . . | $$ | . . . X O O X O X X O O X X O X . . . | $$ | . . . X . O X X X O O X O O . X O X . | $$ | . . . . X . X O X O . X . X . X . O . | $$ | . . X . . X X . O . 3 . . . O X X . . | $$ | . 1 X . X O X O O O . . . . O O X X . | $$ | . O X O X O O X X O O O O . . X O O . | $$ | 2 . O X X O X X . X X X O X X X X O . | $$ | . . O X O O X X X X . . . X O X O . . | $$ | . . O O . O X . X O O O O X O X O . . | $$ | . . . O . O X . X O . . . O O O O . . | $$ ---------------------------------------
[go]$$Bcm15 Prisoners: , $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O . . O . . . . O . . . . O X X X . | $$ | . X O O X O . O O X O O . . O X O X . | $$ | . X X X X O . O X X O X O O X X O O . | $$ | . . . . . . O . O X X X X O X . . . . | $$ | . . . X X X X O O O X . X O X . O O . | $$ | . . X O O O X . . . X X O O X . . X . | $$ | . . X O X X O O O X . . O X . . X . . | $$ | . . X O O . O . O X X X O X X X O . . | $$ | . . . X O O X O X X O O X X O X . . . | $$ | . . . X . O X X X O O X O O . X O X . | $$ | . . . . X . X O X O . X . X . X . O . | $$ | . . X . . X X . O . 3 . . . O X X . . | $$ | . 1 X . X O X O O O . . . . O O X X . | $$ | . O X O X O O X X O O O O . . X O O . | $$ | 2 . O X X O X X . X X X O X X X X O . | $$ | . . O X O O X X X X . . . X O X O . . | $$ | . . O O . O X . X O O O O X O X O . . | $$ | . . . O . O X . X O . . . O O O O . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Re: #215: The Intrepid vs. drishti: Deep in the Endgame Weed
Posted: Wed May 01, 2013 6:21 am
by The Intrepid
$$Bcm17 Prisoners: , $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O . . O . . . . O . . . . O X X X . | $$ | . X O O X O . O O X O O . . O X O X . | $$ | . X X X X O . O X X O X O O X X O O . | $$ | . . . . . . O . O X X X X O X . . . . | $$ | . . . X X X X O O O X . X O X . O O . | $$ | . . X O O O X . . . X X O O X . . X . | $$ | . . X O X X O O O X . . O X . . X . . | $$ | . . X O O . O . O X X X O X X X O . . | $$ | . . . X O O X O X X O O X X O X . . . | $$ | . . . X . O X X X O O X O O . X O X . | $$ | . . . . X . X O X O . X . X . X . O . | $$ | . . X . . X X . O 2 1 . . . O X X . . | $$ | . X X . X O X O O O . . . . O O X X . | $$ | . O X O X O O X X O O O O . . X O O . | $$ | O . O X X O X X . X X X O X X X X O . | $$ | . . O X O O X X X X . . . X O X O . . | $$ | . . O O . O X . X O O O O X O X O . . | $$ | . . . O . O X . X O . . . O O O O . . | $$ ---------------------------------------
[go]$$Bcm17 Prisoners: , $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O . . O . . . . O . . . . O X X X . | $$ | . X O O X O . O O X O O . . O X O X . | $$ | . X X X X O . O X X O X O O X X O O . | $$ | . . . . . . O . O X X X X O X . . . . | $$ | . . . X X X X O O O X . X O X . O O . | $$ | . . X O O O X . . . X X O O X . . X . | $$ | . . X O X X O O O X . . O X . . X . . | $$ | . . X O O . O . O X X X O X X X O . . | $$ | . . . X O O X O X X O O X X O X . . . | $$ | . . . X . O X X X O O X O O . X O X . | $$ | . . . . X . X O X O . X . X . X . O . | $$ | . . X . . X X . O 2 1 . . . O X X . . | $$ | . X X . X O X O O O . . . . O O X X . | $$ | . O X O X O O X X O O O O . . X O O . | $$ | O . O X X O X X . X X X O X X X X O . | $$ | . . O X O O X X X X . . . X O X O . . | $$ | . . O O . O X . X O O O O X O X O . . | $$ | . . . O . O X . X O . . . O O O O . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Black should now start making a series of sente plays all over the board.
Re: #215: The Intrepid vs. drishti: Deep in the Endgame Weed
Posted: Wed May 01, 2013 8:52 am
by tj86430
The Intrepid wrote:Black should now start making a series of sente plays all over the board.
Should he? I think black will win anyway.
I'm sure he could, though.
Re: #215: The Intrepid vs. drishti: Deep in the Endgame Weed
Posted: Wed May 01, 2013 9:19 am
by drishti
$$Bcm17 Prisoners: , $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O . . O . . . . O . . . . O X X X . | $$ | . X O O X O . O O X O O . . O X O X . | $$ | . X X X X O . O X X O X O O X X O O . | $$ | . . . . . . O . O X X X X O X . . . . | $$ | . . . X X X X O O O X . X O X . O O . | $$ | . . X O O O X . . . X X O O X . . X . | $$ | . . X O X X O O O X . 3 O X . . X . . | $$ | . . X O O . O . O X X X O X X X O . . | $$ | . . . X O O X O X X O O X X O X . . . | $$ | . . . X . O X X X O O X O O . X O X . | $$ | . . . . X . X O X O . X . X . X . O . | $$ | . . X . . X X . O 2 1 . . . O X X . . | $$ | . X X . X O X O O O . . . . O O X X . | $$ | . O X O X O O X X O O O O . . X O O . | $$ | O . O X X O X X . X X X O X X X X O . | $$ | . . O X O O X X X X . . . X O X O . . | $$ | . . O O . O X . X O O O O X O X O . . | $$ | . . . O . O X . X O . . . O O O O . . | $$ ---------------------------------------
[go]$$Bcm17 Prisoners: , $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O . . O . . . . O . . . . O X X X . | $$ | . X O O X O . O O X O O . . O X O X . | $$ | . X X X X O . O X X O X O O X X O O . | $$ | . . . . . . O . O X X X X O X . . . . | $$ | . . . X X X X O O O X . X O X . O O . | $$ | . . X O O O X . . . X X O O X . . X . | $$ | . . X O X X O O O X . 3 O X . . X . . | $$ | . . X O O . O . O X X X O X X X O . . | $$ | . . . X O O X O X X O O X X O X . . . | $$ | . . . X . O X X X O O X O O . X O X . | $$ | . . . . X . X O X O . X . X . X . O . | $$ | . . X . . X X . O 2 1 . . . O X X . . | $$ | . X X . X O X O O O . . . . O O X X . | $$ | . O X O X O O X X O O O O . . X O O . | $$ | O . O X X O X X . X X X O X X X X O . | $$ | . . O X O O X X X X . . . X O X O . . | $$ | . . O O . O X . X O O O O X O X O . . | $$ | . . . O . O X . X O . . . O O O O . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Re: #215: The Intrepid vs. drishti: Deep in the Endgame Weed
Posted: Wed May 01, 2013 9:32 am
by Uberdude
tj86430 wrote:
The Intrepid wrote:Black should now start making a series of sente plays all over the board.
Should he? I think black will win anyway.
I'm sure he could, though.
Or he could pass to show how far ahead he is and that sente is overrated
Re: #215: The Intrepid vs. drishti: Deep in the Endgame Weed
Posted: Wed May 01, 2013 9:54 am
by The Intrepid
$$Bcm19 Prisoners: , $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O . . O . . . . O . . . . O X X X . | $$ | . X O O X O . O O X O O . 2 O X O X . | $$ | . X X X X O . O X X O X O O X X O O . | $$ | . . . . . . O . O X X X X O X . . . . | $$ | . . . X X X X O O O X . X O X . O O . | $$ | . . X O O O X . . . X X O O X . . X . | $$ | . . X O X X O O O X . 1 O X . . X . . | $$ | . . X O O . O . O X X X O X X X O . . | $$ | . . . X O O X O X X O O X X O X . . . | $$ | . . . X . O X X X O O X O O . X O X . | $$ | . . . . X . X O X O . X . X . X . O . | $$ | . . X . . X X . O O X . . . O X X . . | $$ | . X X . X O X O O O . . . . O O X X . | $$ | . O X O X O O X X O O O O . . X O O . | $$ | O . O X X O X X . X X X O X X X X O . | $$ | . . O X O O X X X X . . . X O X O . . | $$ | . . O O . O X . X O O O O X O X O . . | $$ | . . . O . O X . X O . . . O O O O . . | $$ ---------------------------------------
[go]$$Bcm19 Prisoners: , $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O . . O . . . . O . . . . O X X X . | $$ | . X O O X O . O O X O O . 2 O X O X . | $$ | . X X X X O . O X X O X O O X X O O . | $$ | . . . . . . O . O X X X X O X . . . . | $$ | . . . X X X X O O O X . X O X . O O . | $$ | . . X O O O X . . . X X O O X . . X . | $$ | . . X O X X O O O X . 1 O X . . X . . | $$ | . . X O O . O . O X X X O X X X O . . | $$ | . . . X O O X O X X O O X X O X . . . | $$ | . . . X . O X X X O O X O O . X O X . | $$ | . . . . X . X O X O . X . X . X . O . | $$ | . . X . . X X . O O X . . . O X X . . | $$ | . X X . X O X O O O . . . . O O X X . | $$ | . O X O X O O X X O O O O . . X O O . | $$ | O . O X X O X X . X X X O X X X X O . | $$ | . . O X O O X X X X . . . X O X O . . | $$ | . . O O . O X . X O O O O X O X O . . | $$ | . . . O . O X . X O . . . O O O O . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Black lost some points here. Let's compare these diagrams:
$$Bc $$ -------------------- $$ C C C 4 3 1 5 . . . | $$ O C C 6 2 O X X X . | $$ X O O C C O X O X . | $$ X O X O O X X O O . | $$ X X X X O X . . . . | $$ O X . X O X . O O . | $$ . X X O O X . . X . | $$ X T . O X . . X . . | $$ X X X O X X X O . . | $$ X O O X X O X . . . |
[go]$$Bc $$ -------------------- $$ C C C 4 3 1 5 . . . | $$ O C C 6 2 O X X X . | $$ X O O C C O X O X . | $$ X O X O O X X O O . | $$ X X X X O X . . . . | $$ O X . X O X . O O . | $$ . X X O O X . . X . | $$ X T . O X . . X . . | $$ X X X O X X X O . . | $$ X O O X X O X . . . |[/go]
w = 7, B = 1/2, S1 = W - B = 6.5
$$Bc $$ -------------------- $$ C C C C C 4 3 . . . | $$ O C C C C O X X X . | $$ X O O C 2 O X O X . | $$ X O X O O X X O O . | $$ X X X X O X . . . . | $$ O X . X O X . O O . | $$ . X X O O X . . X . | $$ X M 1 O X . . X . . | $$ X X X O X X X O . . | $$ X O O X X O X . . . |
[go]$$Bc $$ -------------------- $$ C C C C C 4 3 . . . | $$ O C C C C O X X X . | $$ X O O C 2 O X O X . | $$ X O X O O X X O O . | $$ X X X X O X . . . . | $$ O X . X O X . O O . | $$ . X X O O X . . X . | $$ X M 1 O X . . X . . | $$ X X X O X X X O . . | $$ X O O X X O X . . . |[/go]
(Moves and mark the "fair exchange" or "value of the position" as mitsun termed it previously, which is just a shortcut from the full "expected value calculation" which I was making previously.) W = 10, B = 1, S2 = 9
=> S = S2 - S1 = 2.5
Thus, Black cost himself 2.5 points.
I was saying how I would resign after my attempt to make life on the right fails. I've changed my mind. It'll be good practice for drishti if I play on until the very end. Besides, he worked hard to win this game, so let him enjoy the fruits of his labor a little longer.
Edit:
Actually, I now look at the position and it seems that Black could also have considered this:
$$Bc $$ -------------------- $$ C C C 6 5 3 7 . . . | $$ O C C 4 1 O X X X . | $$ X O O 0 2 O X O X . | $$ X O X O O X X O O . | $$ X X X X O X . . . . | $$ O X . X O X . O O . | $$ . X X O O X . . X . | $$ X M 9 O X . . X . . | $$ X X X O X X X O . . | $$ X O O X X O X . . . |
[go]$$Bc $$ -------------------- $$ C C C 6 5 3 7 . . . | $$ O C C 4 1 O X X X . | $$ X O O 0 2 O X O X . | $$ X O X O O X X O O . | $$ X X X X O X . . . . | $$ O X . X O X . O O . | $$ . X X O O X . . X . | $$ X M 9 O X . . X . . | $$ X X X O X X X O . . | $$ X O O X X O X . . . |[/go]
(White takes sente with , but Black will have the right to play at some later point.) S = 5 - 1 = 4, although this ends in gote for Black as compared to the other variation where Black would keep sente.
Re: #215: The Intrepid vs. drishti: Deep in the Endgame Weed
Posted: Wed May 01, 2013 10:10 am
by jts
NB, the "fair value" Intrepid mentions only applies when a move ends in gote for both sides. This is gote for W:
$$Bc $$ -------------------- $$ C C C C C 6 4 5 . . | $$ O C C C C O X X X . | $$ X O O C 2 O X O X . | $$ X O X O O X X O O . | $$ X X X X O X . . . . | $$ O X . X O X . O O . | $$ . X X O O X . . X . | $$ X M 1 O X . . X . . | $$ X X X O X X X O . . | $$ X O O X X O X . . . |
[go]$$Bc $$ -------------------- $$ C C C C C 6 4 5 . . | $$ O C C C C O X X X . | $$ X O O C 2 O X O X . | $$ X O X O O X X O O . | $$ X X X X O X . . . . | $$ O X . X O X . O O . | $$ . X X O O X . . X . | $$ X M 1 O X . . X . . | $$ X X X O X X X O . . | $$ X O O X X O X . . . |[/go]
(Depending on the temperature, might not even be sente, but anyway.) This, however is sente for black:
$$Bc $$ -------------------- $$ C C C C 4 3 5 . . . | $$ O C C 6 C O X X X . | $$ X O O C 2 O X O X . | $$ X O X O O X X O O . | $$ X X X X O X . . . . | $$ O X . X O X . O O . | $$ . X X O O X . . X . | $$ X M 1 O X . . X . . | $$ X X X O X X X O . . | $$ X O O X X O X . . . |
[go]$$Bc $$ -------------------- $$ C C C C 4 3 5 . . . | $$ O C C 6 C O X X X . | $$ X O O C 2 O X O X . | $$ X O X O O X X O O . | $$ X X X X O X . . . . | $$ O X . X O X . O O . | $$ . X X O O X . . X . | $$ X M 1 O X . . X . . | $$ X X X O X X X O . . | $$ X O O X X O X . . . |[/go]
Or else:
$$Bc $$ -------------------- $$ C C C C 4 3 5 . . . | $$ O C C 7 9 O X X X . | $$ X O O 8 2 O X O X . | $$ X O X O O X X O O . | $$ X X X X O X . . . . | $$ O X . X O X . O O . | $$ . X X O O X . . X . | $$ X M 1 O X . . X . . | $$ X X X O X X X O . . | $$ X O O X X O X . . . |
[go]$$Bc $$ -------------------- $$ C C C C 4 3 5 . . . | $$ O C C 7 9 O X X X . | $$ X O O 8 2 O X O X . | $$ X O X O O X X O O . | $$ X X X X O X . . . . | $$ O X . X O X . O O . | $$ . X X O O X . . X . | $$ X M 1 O X . . X . . | $$ X X X O X X X O . . | $$ X O O X X O X . . . |[/go]
Is that all? No, of course that's not all.
$$Bc $$ -------------------- $$ C 6 4 3 5 X X . . . | $$ O C 2 X 1 O X X X . | $$ X O O O O O X O X . | $$ X O X O O X X O O . | $$ X X X X O X . . . . | $$ O X . X O X . O O . | $$ . X X O O X . . X . | $$ X M X O X . . X . . | $$ X X X O X X X O . . | $$ X O O X X O X . . . |
[go]$$Bc $$ -------------------- $$ C 6 4 3 5 X X . . . | $$ O C 2 X 1 O X X X . | $$ X O O O O O X O X . | $$ X O X O O X X O O . | $$ X X X X O X . . . . | $$ O X . X O X . O O . | $$ . X X O O X . . X . | $$ X M X O X . . X . . | $$ X X X O X X X O . . | $$ X O O X X O X . . . |[/go]
B ends in sente again! So normally we will count this as B's sente.
Re: #215: The Intrepid vs. drishti: Deep in the Endgame Weed
Posted: Wed May 01, 2013 10:18 am
by drishti
$$Bcm19 Prisoners: , $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O . . O . . . . O . . . . O X X X . | $$ | . X O O X O . O O X O O . 2 O X O X . | $$ | . X X X X O . O X X O X O O X X O O . | $$ | . . . . . . O . O X X X X O X . . . . | $$ | . . . X X X X O O O X . X O X . O O . | $$ | . . X O O O X . . . X X O O X . . X . | $$ | . . X O X X O O O X . 1 O X . . X . . | $$ | . . X O O . O . O X X X O X X X O . . | $$ | . . . X O O X O X X O O X X O X . . . | $$ | . . . X . O X X X O O X O O . X O X . | $$ | . . . . X . X O X O . X . X . X . O . | $$ | . . X . . X X . O O X . . . O X X . . | $$ | . X X . X O X O O O . . . . O O X X . | $$ | . O X O X O O X X O O O O . . X O O 3 | $$ | O . O X X O X X . X X X O X X X X O . | $$ | . . O X O O X X X X . . . X O X O . . | $$ | . . O O . O X . X O O O O X O X O . . | $$ | . . . O . O X . X O . . . O O O O . . | $$ ---------------------------------------
[go]$$Bcm19 Prisoners: , $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O . . O . . . . O . . . . O X X X . | $$ | . X O O X O . O O X O O . 2 O X O X . | $$ | . X X X X O . O X X O X O O X X O O . | $$ | . . . . . . O . O X X X X O X . . . . | $$ | . . . X X X X O O O X . X O X . O O . | $$ | . . X O O O X . . . X X O O X . . X . | $$ | . . X O X X O O O X . 1 O X . . X . . | $$ | . . X O O . O . O X X X O X X X O . . | $$ | . . . X O O X O X X O O X X O X . . . | $$ | . . . X . O X X X O O X O O . X O X . | $$ | . . . . X . X O X O . X . X . X . O . | $$ | . . X . . X X . O O X . . . O X X . . | $$ | . X X . X O X O O O . . . . O O X X . | $$ | . O X O X O O X X O O O O . . X O O 3 | $$ | O . O X X O X X . X X X O X X X X O . | $$ | . . O X O O X X X X . . . X O X O . . | $$ | . . O O . O X . X O O O O X O X O . . | $$ | . . . O . O X . X O . . . O O O O . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
triggers W T4, triggers B T6 (hope that's the right notation)
Re: #215: The Intrepid vs. drishti: Deep in the Endgame Weed
Posted: Wed May 01, 2013 10:35 am
by The Intrepid
Actually, feel free to indicate triggers on the board (although you can certainly do it in text form like you did). In any case, I reject the trigger.
$$Bcm21 Prisoners: , $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O . . O . . . . O . . . . O X X X . | $$ | . X O O X O . O O X O O . O O X O X . | $$ | . X X X X O . O X X O X O O X X O O . | $$ | . . . . . . O . O X X X X O X . . . . | $$ | . . . X X X X O O O X . X O X . O O . | $$ | . . X O O O X . . . X X O O X . . X . | $$ | . . X O X X O O O X . X O X . . X . . | $$ | . . X O O . O . O X X X O X X X O . . | $$ | . . . X O O X O X X O O X X O X . . . | $$ | . . . X . O X X X O O X O O . X O X . | $$ | . . . . X . X O X O . X . X . X . O . | $$ | . . X . . X X . O O X . . . O X X . . | $$ | . X X . X O X O O O . . . . O O X X . | $$ | . O X O X O O X X O O O O . . X O O 1 | $$ | O . O X X O X X . X X X O X X X X O . | $$ | . . O X O O X X X X . . . X O X O 2 . | $$ | . . O O . O X . X O O O O X O X O . . | $$ | . . . O . O X . X O . . . O O O O . . | $$ ---------------------------------------
[go]$$Bcm21 Prisoners: , $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O . . O . . . . O . . . . O X X X . | $$ | . X O O X O . O O X O O . O O X O X . | $$ | . X X X X O . O X X O X O O X X O O . | $$ | . . . . . . O . O X X X X O X . . . . | $$ | . . . X X X X O O O X . X O X . O O . | $$ | . . X O O O X . . . X X O O X . . X . | $$ | . . X O X X O O O X . X O X . . X . . | $$ | . . X O O . O . O X X X O X X X O . . | $$ | . . . X O O X O X X O O X X O X . . . | $$ | . . . X . O X X X O O X O O . X O X . | $$ | . . . . X . X O X O . X . X . X . O . | $$ | . . X . . X X . O O X . . . O X X . . | $$ | . X X . X O X O O O . . . . O O X X . | $$ | . O X O X O O X X O O O O . . X O O 1 | $$ | O . O X X O X X . X X X O X X X X O . | $$ | . . O X O O X X X X . . . X O X O 2 . | $$ | . . O O . O X . X O O O O X O X O . . | $$ | . . . O . O X . X O . . . O O O O . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
$$Bc $$ X X . . | $$ O X X . | $$ X O O 1 | $$ X X O 2 | $$ X O 3 . | $$ X O . . | $$ O O . . | $$ --------
[go]$$Wc $$ X X . . | $$ O X X . | $$ X O O . | $$ X X O . | $$ X O 1 . | $$ X O . . | $$ O O . . | $$ --------[/go]
Edit 2:
Actually, I could have accepted the trigger and then defended, but I want to leave my options open for things like this:
$$Wc $$ -------------- $$ . . . . . . | $$ . O X X X . | $$ O O X O X . | $$ O X X O O . | $$ O X . . . . | $$ O X . O O . | $$ O X . . X . | $$ X . . X . . | $$ X X X O . . | $$ X O X . . . | $$ O . X O X 3 | $$ X . X . O M | $$ . O X X . 1 | $$ . O O X X 2 | $$ . . X O O X | $$ X X X X O . | $$ X O X O O . | $$ X O X O . . | $$ O O O O . . | $$ --------------
[go]$$Wc $$ -------------- $$ . . . . . . | $$ . O X X X . | $$ O O X O X . | $$ O X X O O . | $$ O X . . . . | $$ O X . O O . | $$ O X . . X . | $$ X . . X . . | $$ X X X O . . | $$ X O X . . . | $$ O . X O X 3 | $$ X . X . O M | $$ . O X X . 1 | $$ . O O X X 2 | $$ . . X O O X | $$ X X X X O . | $$ X O X O O . | $$ X O X O . . | $$ O O O O . . | $$ --------------[/go]
The marked point is almost an eye. Desperate, I know, but even a 1% of a 1% of a chance is better than no chance.
Re: #215: The Intrepid vs. drishti: Deep in the Endgame Weed
Posted: Wed May 01, 2013 10:37 am
by Uberdude
If white t4 can black change his mind about the trigger? The tempting trigger tesuji...
Re: #215: The Intrepid vs. drishti: Deep in the Endgame Weed
Posted: Wed May 01, 2013 11:00 am
by drishti
$$Bcm21 Prisoners: , $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | 3 O . . O . . . . O . . . . O X X X . | $$ | . X O O X O . O O X O O . O O X O X . | $$ | . X X X X O . O X X O X O O X X O O . | $$ | . . . . . . O . O X X X X O X . . . . | $$ | . . . X X X X O O O X . X O X . O O . | $$ | . . X O O O X . . . X X O O X . . X . | $$ | . . X O X X O O O X . X O X . . X . . | $$ | . . X O O . O . O X X X O X X X O . . | $$ | . . . X O O X O X X O O X X O X . . . | $$ | . . . X . O X X X O O X O O . X O X . | $$ | . . . . X . X O X O . X . X . X . O . | $$ | . . X . . X X . O O X . . . O X X . . | $$ | . X X . X O X O O O . . . . O O X X . | $$ | . O X O X O O X X O O O O . . X O O 1 | $$ | O . O X X O X X . X X X O X X X X O . | $$ | . . O X O O X X X X . . . X O X O 2 . | $$ | . . O O . O X . X O O O O X O X O . . | $$ | . . . O . O X . X O . . . O O O O . . | $$ ---------------------------------------
[go]$$Bcm21 Prisoners: , $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | 3 O . . O . . . . O . . . . O X X X . | $$ | . X O O X O . O O X O O . O O X O X . | $$ | . X X X X O . O X X O X O O X X O O . | $$ | . . . . . . O . O X X X X O X . . . . | $$ | . . . X X X X O O O X . X O X . O O . | $$ | . . X O O O X . . . X X O O X . . X . | $$ | . . X O X X O O O X . X O X . . X . . | $$ | . . X O O . O . O X X X O X X X O . . | $$ | . . . X O O X O X X O O X X O X . . . | $$ | . . . X . O X X X O O X O O . X O X . | $$ | . . . . X . X O X O . X . X . X . O . | $$ | . . X . . X X . O O X . . . O X X . . | $$ | . X X . X O X O O O . . . . O O X X . | $$ | . O X O X O O X X O O O O . . X O O 1 | $$ | O . O X X O X X . X X X O X X X X O . | $$ | . . O X O O X X X X . . . X O X O 2 . | $$ | . . O O . O X . X O O O O X O X O . . | $$ | . . . O . O X . X O . . . O O O O . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
, 
I need to think about this a bit.
My attempt to live on the right side will fail miserably; that much is clear. Thus, the only way left for me to win this game is if my opponent resigns prematurely. However, the only way this could happen is he falls prey to my powers of persuasion. It's going to be awesome! Should I do it? 
and 
mark the "fair exchange" or "value of the position" as mitsun termed it previously, which is just a shortcut from the full "expected value calculation" which I was making previously.) W = 10, B = 1, 
, but Black will have the right to play 
at some later point.) S = 5 - 1 = 4, although this ends in gote for Black as compared to the other variation where Black would keep sente.