Life In 19x19

SmoothOper wrote:http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=basic

See basic is denigrating.

Basic joseki pretty much sums it up.

quote from urbandictionary

Urban Dictionary is the dictionary you write. Define your world

Not exactly a dictionary which defines the world as most people would agree upon.

SmoothOper wrote:In any case I would think twice about going to a teacher that thinks you need 38 joseki before you learn Fuseki, or is unwilling or unable to explain the relevant joseki to the Fuseki that interests you.

And how would someone who is described by the teacher as "you don't even know the basic josekis yet" figure out that that there are different josekis to pick from to find one relevant to the fuseki that interests him? He hasn't even touched the subjects of joseki or fuseki yet according to the description. From your statement, it seems you really don't have a good grasp of the level the student is at. I would think twice about following your advice in this matter.

SmoothOper wrote:In any case I would think twice about going to a teacher that thinks you need 38 joseki before you learn Fuseki, or is unwilling or unable to explain the relevant joseki to the Fuseki that interests you.

Conversely trying to learn fuseki before you've studied some joseki is like trying to build a house starting with the roof tiles.

Boidhre wrote:

SmoothOper wrote:In any case I would think twice about going to a teacher that thinks you need 38 joseki before you learn Fuseki, or is unwilling or unable to explain the relevant joseki to the Fuseki that interests you.

Conversely trying to learn fuseki before you've studied some joseki is like trying to build a house starting with the roof tiles.

Not learning Fuseki first is like building a house without hiring an architect, you end up building a perfectly good bathroom leading directly to the kitchen, because you don't know how to lay out the floor plan, and you spent too much on the finish materials, half of which you don't need anyway, but you have to connect the pipes.

Building a house and hiring an architect is like playing go and hiring a teacher. Obviously if you follow the expert advice of your architect, you'd also follow the expert advice of your go teacher.

tchan001 wrote:Building a house and hiring an architect is like playing go and hiring a teacher. Obviously if you follow the expert advice of your architect, you'd also follow the expert advice of your go teacher.

Nah, the building analogy was dumb, I was just making fun of Boidhre's roof tile analogy. Go teachers don't attend universities, get licensed, and have to follow codes, though it would be nice if they could at least put on a facade of professional ethics and pretend to be competent sometimes, which judging from this thread isn't going to happen in the West anytime soon.

Which kind of competence do you want to see?

SmoothOper wrote:

tchan001 wrote:Building a house and hiring an architect is like playing go and hiring a teacher. Obviously if you follow the expert advice of your architect, you'd also follow the expert advice of your go teacher.

Go teachers don't attend universities, get licensed, and have to follow codes, ... isn't going to happen in the West anytime soon.

But that's exactly what is happening.

At the recent US Go Congress, a number of people attended a series of classes throughout the week, and at the end were granted a teaching certificate.

I also know other amateur players who have been certified as Go instructors from the Nihon Kiin.

xed_over wrote:At the recent US Go Congress, a number of people attended a series of classes throughout the week, and at the end were granted a teaching certificate.

However if they don't come to the same conclusions as SmoothOper wants, then they're not competent anyway.

alright, "basic joseki"

the basic joseki quote was discussed with an old teacher i had (Yan An) but it was also brought up at the recent go congress with Chen Wei 3p. When I talked with chen wei the discussion was about an old joseki that fell into disuse in a game i played along with modern josekis

Chen Wei: "there are josekis out there that you just have to know and memorize without thinking, and there are josekis out there that you can puzzle over"
Me: "So how do i know which ones i should just know w/o thinking?"
Chen Wei: "ask your teacher"
Me: "And what about ones that fell into disuse?"
Chen Wei: "ask your teacher"

anyways, there are plenty of joseki that once you decide to start, there really isn't much divergence from it. that's what i think teachers typically mean by a basic joseki.

but in regards to fuseki, w/o understanding the nuances or basic goals/ideas of each joseki it'll be very hard to understand how they interrelate or the joseki choices made for the fuseki. this is what i think my teacher meant by learning and understanding basic joseki firstbefore tackling fuseki.

often wrote:Chen Wei: "there are josekis out there that you just have to know and memorize without thinking, and there are josekis out there that you can puzzle over"
Me: "So how do i know which ones i should just know w/o thinking?"
Chen Wei: "ask your teacher"
Me: "And what about ones that fell into disuse?"
Chen Wei: "ask your teacher"

What if you don't have a teacher? Or the teacher does not know?

Bantari wrote:What if you don't have a teacher? Or the teacher does not know?

Where is the problem? Every modern joseki dictionary tells you the answer. If you don't believe one source, read three and compare.

RobertJasiek wrote:

Bantari wrote:What if you don't have a teacher? Or the teacher does not know?

Where is the problem? Every modern joseki dictionary tells you the answer. If you don't believe one source, read three and compare.

Problem? What problem? Why problem? No problem...

Just wondering what is the advice of the pro to people who have no teacher. Is it read books? Is it stop playing? Is it to go get a teacher? Or is is simply assumed that everybody has a teacher, period. I don't know what the guy meant, thus - asking. This is what some people sometimes do when they want to know something.

The problem being is no book covers all joseki that are played and especially true for newly played joseki.

If my teacher doesn't know, he'll give me his best opinion. That's all I ask for.

Bantari wrote:

often wrote:Chen Wei: "there are josekis out there that you just have to know and memorize without thinking, and there are josekis out there that you can puzzle over"
Me: "So how do i know which ones i should just know w/o thinking?"
Chen Wei: "ask your teacher"
Me: "And what about ones that fell into disuse?"
Chen Wei: "ask your teacher"

What if you don't have a teacher? Or the teacher does not know?

my current go teacher keeps up with the recent go opinions so i would hope that a "professional teacher" would know the recent happenings with go knowledge, considering its their profession

if you don't have a teacher, i have no good answer for you
i've read some joseki dictionaries and they don't really mention if something is "old"
for example this one:

is considered old
senseis.xmp talks about it and references guo juan as the source of the info, but the "21st century dictionary of basic joseki" by takao shinji doesn't reference that its old and its a fairly recent book.

Duplicate see below