Life In 19x19

palapiku wrote:English is the world's best language for poetry.

What makes you say that? I have a hard time believing anyone not well familiar with a good number of languages is qualified to make such a claim.

+1 to what Daal said. It's definitely frustrating to learn, but the way a word is spelled becomes an integral part of it's character. This isn't simple adversity to change because words become associated with experiences in the same way that music, smells and people do*, so even slightly altering words can have a profound effect on how we experience them.

*This is also why you should never spell come as cum.

xed_over wrote:

gowan wrote: The fact is that most native speakers of English have very little knowledge of formal grammar; they judge by whether it "sounds right". This perception of what sounds right comes from extensive exposure to the language in ordinary speech, literature, and written text. It doesn't come from explicit rules.

And this is why I personally believe we should replay more Professional games, and less studying books on rules and technique.

Even worse, the formal grammars are typically either made up and tremendously inconsistent (some English professors and at-large critics) or openly admitted to be very incomplete (linguists).

And yes, the comment about word order was a joke. Supposedly some French politician said it publicly about French, but I can't find a source, so it may be a figment of my imagination.

Bill Spight wrote: I experienced two phases in Japan.

1) Nihongo wa ojouzu desu ne! (Your Japanese is very good.)

I still chuckle when I hear reference to #1 here, because this seems to be the de facto phrase that native Japanese speakers express to non-native speakers they encounter. While it's a compliment, sometimes I would be a little frustrated with the apparent lack of sincerity in the statement.

To give an example, once my wife, upon meeting someone for the first time in Japan, simply said "konnichiha". I don't think she even got another word in before the native speaker interjected to express the obligatory, "Eeh?!? Nihongo wa ojouzu desu ne!" Now it happened to be the case that my wife had, in fact, studied Japanese quite a bit, but seriously? From a single expression? Can one really ascertain someone's level of competency in the language from something so simple?

It may be the case that my wife's pronunciation was good - she studies pronunciation much more than I do. But the situation still leaves me with a feeling of combined amusement and annoyance at the apparent lack of sincerity in the complement.

That being said, perhaps the same can be said of many "courteous gestures". If someone acts in a courteous manner, are they being sincere? Does it matter?

oren wrote:

Boidhre wrote: Eh, source? I'm curious, I've heard not the opposite but that immersion as a sole learning method only works for most people when they're young children. When you're older you normally need some other sources (not necessarily text books, but e.g. grammar drills) to go with the immersion that children don't seem to require.

Sorry on this one I'll claim mostly self-experience from going to Japan and staying with a host family. I was learning in classes on the side but 90% of the useful learning for me was chatting with the host family and others.

No studies to quote.

In my experience, the combination of studying on your own and exposure to native speakers and text is the best. I participated in a homestay in Nagoya awhile back, and while I certainly think it was very helpful both in my confidence and in increasing my language ability, it would have been much less efficient if I hadn't taken the time and effort to learn vocabulary and grammar independently. I can only imagine what it'd be like if I hadn't - it'd be like talking in Klingon with someone in a coffee shop, having never studied the language. They'd say some pretty funky stuff, and maybe I could figure out some patterns, but I'd be a lot more lost than the situation I was in at the home stay, having studied for a bit already.

It's probably the same with anything: You can learn go just by playing a bunch of games, but it's likely most effective to study, play, and do anything possible to contribute to your ability.

This is also why you should never spell come as cum.

What! We have a heathen in the house! What about "Sumer is icumen in"?

Such rejections of our noble past make this bulluc stertheth and yon bucke verteth.

Rejoice rather and "murie sing cuccu!"

English is the world's best language for poetry.

Not sure that famous song backs up the claim, actually. Hated it at school. Instead, I've seen it claimed that on the basis of the number of translations all round the world, the sheer number of annual piss-ups worldwide to celebrate his birth, and the fact that more native speakers can allegedly quote some of his poetry at some length than for any other poet - outdoing even Shakespeare - the Scots of Robert Burns is the most popular language for poetry.

I can't vouch for that of course, but I do think you may be a heathen if even as an English speaker you can't appreciate the beauty of the love for old JA and the lyrics in verses such as:

John Anderson my jo, John.
We clamb the hill thegither,
And monie a cantie day, John,
We've had wi ane another.
Now we maun totter doon, John,
And hand in hand we'll go,
And sleep thegither at the foot.
John Anderson, my jo.

Or appreciate the commuter's lament "when bughtin time is near": And ousen frae the farrow'd field/Return sae douf and weary, O.

palapiku wrote:English is the world's best language for poetry.

English is pretty good... but the best and best sounding sounding poetry I ever heard was in russian. Its a very beautiful language I think, even better for poetry than english. Just my opinion of course.

Bantari wrote:English is pretty good... but the best and best sounding sounding poetry I ever heard was in russian. Its a very beautiful language I think, even better for poetry than english. Just my opinion of course.

Russian does have some fantastic poetry. But English is just more versatile. Russian suffers from a much more regular morphology with ubiquitous suffixes - as a result, the rhymes are less varied and overall the language is less terse than English can be. There's just fewer things you can do in a given number of syllables.

emeraldemon wrote:Something I've wondered before: is English the only language with national spelling competitions? The words they choose for those are a bit silly, but it does underline the vast complicated mess of English spelling.

In french, grammar is a nightmare, so writing competitions are more on whole texts, rather that spelling of individual words, with a lot of grammar pitfalls.

Ok, slightly of topic, but here are my favourites traps/oddness in french:

J'en doute: I doubt it (easy, isn't it ?)
Je m'en doute : I suspected as much.

There a 3 words that are masculine when singular and feminine when plural:
amour, delice, orgues.

Something i just found on the internet and that is really crazy:

"gens" (people) is generally plural masculine, BUT if the adjective just before as a different form between masculine and feminine, then the whole syntactic group is put ot the feminine plural:

Toutes ces vieilles gens:all those old people. ("Tous ces vieux gens" is impossible for a native speaker)
Tous ces braves gens: all those good people (has a bonus weirdness translating brave by ... brave would be wrong here)

(because adjective "brave" have the same form for masculine and feminine)

I would have say it that way, but i would not know how to explain it.



As for poetry, i think the best language is your native language because you really need to appreciate the finer nuances.

perceval wrote:

emeraldemon wrote:Something I've wondered before: is English the only language with national spelling competitions? The words they choose for those are a bit silly, but it does underline the vast complicated mess of English spelling.

In french, grammar is a nightmare, so writing competitions are more on whole texts, rather that spelling of individual words, with a lot of grammar pitfalls.

Ok, slightly of topic, but here are my favourites traps/oddness in french:

J'en doute: I doubt it (easy, isn't it ?)
Je m'en doute : I suspected as much.

There a 3 words that are masculine when singular and feminine when plural:
amour, delice, orgues.

Something i just found on the internet and that is really crazy:

"gens" (people) is generally plural masculine, BUT if the adjective just before as a different form between masculine and feminine, then the whole syntactic group is put ot the feminine plural:

Toutes ces vieilles gens:all those old people. ("Tous ces vieux gens" is impossible for a native speaker)
Tous ces braves gens: all those good people (has a bonus weirdness translating brave by ... brave would be wrong here)

(because adjective "brave" have the same form for masculine and feminine)

I would have say it that way, but i would not know how to explain it.



As for poetry, i think the best language is your native language because you really need to appreciate the finer nuances.

Two things:
First, in french, s'en + verb is a pretty regular contsruction that can change the sense of the verb, though I don't recall textbooks really mentioning it, and is very different from clitic 'en' in that way.

The thing that always got me about french is that pronouns are taught as if they are words like 'I', 'you', etc. in english, but they're really verb agreement indicators just the same as le, la, y, en, lui, etc.

Second, my favourite language for poetry is Ancient Greek, hardly my first language. I can honestly say I did not really understand the appeal of poetry until I read greek poetry.

Second, my favourite language for poetry is Ancient Greek, hardly my first language. I can honestly say I did not really understand the appeal of poetry until I read greek poetry.

Was this before or after you read Aristotle on the art of poetry?

With regards to poetry, my personal opinion is that Chinese is much better suited than English. I can't say how Chinese compares with other languages as I'm not fluent in any other languages, but I imagine it would be pretty tough to beat.

John Fairbairn wrote:

Second, my favourite language for poetry is Ancient Greek, hardly my first language. I can honestly say I did not really understand the appeal of poetry until I read greek poetry.

Was this before or after you read Aristotle on the art of poetry?

I never read it in depth to be honest. I think it was the clarity of structure that attracted me, as I was especially appreciative of epic and lyric poetry, more so than the dramas.

illluck wrote:With regards to poetry, my personal opinion is that Chinese is much better suited than English. I can't say how Chinese compares with other languages as I'm not fluent in any other languages, but I imagine it would be pretty tough to beat.

My impression is that English is currently somewhat poorly suited to poetry, as a great deal of poetry is about working within restriction and modern English poetry seems to be very much about throwing away "artificial" restrictions.

With Greek, at least, perhaps what I liked most was it's suitability to memorization. When poetry becomes about the form of the words on a page as opposed to the sound, cadence, and meaning, my interest is lost. That may be an art, but it's a visual one and not a linguistic one as much.

skydyr wrote:My impression is that English is currently somewhat poorly suited to poetry, as a great deal of poetry is about working within restriction and modern English poetry seems to be very much about throwing away "artificial" restrictions.

I think that just means modern poetry is poorly suited for poetry.