paK0 wrote:Comparisons with other sports are kinda hard, since the definition of pro in go is a little different. Usually you just need to make money, but in go you need to be able to pass the test and beat out the other contenders. So go pros are all above a certain level 100% of the time(at least all active ones) and that can't be said for pros in other sports, where there is a potential of someone not being that good(relatively speaking) but still being able to get the title of pro.
Actually, golf operates virtually the same way. To becoming a touring pro you must go through a series of tournaments in order to enter a qualifying tournament. By winning in the qualifying tournament you can be a pro and compete on the tour. You will only remain a pro as long a you remain in the top 125 on the money list. One could argue the ability to lose pro status makes golf more competitive than go.
zaqxswcde wrote:Now, the issue I see with this thread is that there's too much of a focus on American and European players.
The issue I see is that OP hasn't posted anything in any thread since this one so it's 100% hijacked by what other people think should be the question. While I think the conversation is interesting, I hope we didn't drive away a beginner.
Hades12 wrote:How do you think 9dan amateurs would hold up against pro players?
I believe the answer to that question would depend on whether we speak of East Asian amateur 9-dans or Western 9-dans. East Asian 9-dan amateurs generally studied in the same schools and under the same curriculum as East Asian certified pros. The difference is that whereas the pro has studied and played Go on an active basis - in almost all cases from childhood - the amateur has either not studied and played the game as religiously or, if the opposite is the case, does not have a pro diploma. So we can say it's about the time and effort invested.
In contrast, most Western pros studied and played the game under different circumstances. (I will not go into detail about how many Western amateurs often neglect to do Go puzzles or replay pro games.)
A Chinese lady with whom I some times play Go once told me that in her country it is possible for a young (under 15) player to reach amateur shodan strength with only the aid of books and regular games against opponents. In addition, she said that the vast range of materials available in China to the aspiring Go player makes this possible. I believe that the limited range and availability of instructional materials in Western countries is one factor that works against aspiring Go players in Western countries.
Another factor is the attitude one has toward the game. In China, Korea, and Japan, Go is accorded a high degree of respect in the national culture and, at least in Korea and China, is prominently featured in news outlets. Of course this takes into account that Go has existed in these countries for many hundreds of years, so the cultural penetration that makes such public exposure feasible is already there. In Korea, once it was discovered that Lee Changho, one of the strongest pros, did not come from a family of Go players but rather from an average Korean one, many Korean parents encouraged their children to learn the game and popularity took off from there. Those who aspire to go pro take the game very seriously. Hence they spend countless hours replaying pro games, doing puzzle drill sets, and playing actual games. Since only a few pro diplomas are given out every year, the competition for the coveted spots is incredibly fierce.
In the West, Go is played by only a few dozen thousand enthusiasts and almost always for fun, not profit. Of course there are some very strong players in the West that have not yet come into public view, but those are few and far between. Finally, Go (and even Chess) are not as publicized or as highly patronized as outdoor sports such as ice hockey, baseball, association football, and basketball, so those who might otherwise make it as professional Go players usually cannot unless they go to Japan, China, or Korea. Hence the overall standard of play is yet well below that of East Asia.
Finally, as in anything else, improving at Go requires diligent effort and constant refinement. In East Asia success through hard, arduous work is almost taken for granted. It is even said that success is not success until one has suffered in the process to attain it. So, in Go, as well as in other Oriental arts, it is not uncommon to practice skills repetitively, over and over. In the West, this is often seen as a needless waste of time and effort, especially if a more efficient method - requiring less time and effort - exists to attain proficiency. Since Westerners tend to be averse to engaging in labor-intensive or study-intensive activities outside of a business context (i.e., for money), a game like Go - which requires much study if one wants to play it well - does not catch on too readily in the West, especially with its reputation for difficulty.
At the risk of digressing just a bit, I say that any introduction to Go should be fun and worry-free. (This is one reason why I've become fond of Capture Go lately.) Only when the casual player decides to take up the game seriously should a formal curriculum be introduced. Given that Go in Western countries is considered to be one more board game and not an educational pursuit, as it is considered in East Asia, any introduction to the game should be fun and invite the novice to explore its mysteries at leisure. Capture Go is good for this because it teaches the core of everything that occurs in a game of Go, the concept of liberties and capture, with only one rule: the side that first captures X number of stones, wins. Life & death is an emergent property of the aforementioned; both players, in the process of attempting to capture as many stones as possible and thereby end the game, will strive to create groups of stones that cannot be captured. As well, the importance of shape, another emergent property of the first concept, is learned; certain shapes of stone groups are more resistant to capture than others. Connection and disconnection are part of this; it is possible to connect two or more little groups together to make one big group that will take longer to capture. Conversely, it is possible as well to disconnect part of one group from the rest to make capture easier.
Finally, knowing just when to stop playing is also learned; in a game of capture Go, both players will play on until a minimum number of stones is captured, even if all that is left to be done is to play inside one's own empty spaces. The result is that one group is reduced to 1 liberty and captured. Eventually both players will want to agree to stop the game at a certain point to avoid capture! In addition, the importance of making stone groups as big as possible - and making sure you control more of the board than your opponent - is also understood, as it will take longer to capture bigger groups than to capture smaller ones. And that the side occupying fewer points on the board will run out of liberties before his opponent does.
So, it sum it all up, at the current level of play that exists in Western countries, most 9-dan amateurs in these countries would have difficulty winning against even a weak East Asian pro - at least without handicap.
Now, if a Westerner were to study in the same schools and under the same curriculum as today's East Asian pros, and stick to it, it is possible for said Western amateur to compete against the best East Asian players.
Last edited by tekesta on Mon Dec 02, 2013 3:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
zaqxswcde wrote:Now, the issue I see with this thread is that there's too much of a focus on American and European players.
The issue I see is that OP hasn't posted anything in any thread since this one so it's 100% hijacked by what other people think should be the question. While I think the conversation is interesting, I hope we didn't drive away a beginner.
I fear that this is just what has happened - and it breaks my heart
zaqxswcde wrote:Now, the issue I see with this thread is that there's too much of a focus on American and European players.
The issue I see is that OP hasn't posted anything in any thread since this one so it's 100% hijacked by what other people think should be the question. While I think the conversation is interesting, I hope we didn't drive away a beginner.
I fear that this is just what has happened - and it breaks my heart
Calm your fears. Hades12 is a 5k on KGS with around 600 games played. (S)he has only made 3 posts total here. No beginner was scared away by our normal blizzard of unfounded opinions and contrafactuals. Keep up the good work lads!
Dave Sigaty
"Short-lived are both the praiser and the praised, and rememberer and the remembered..."
- Marcus Aurelius; Meditations, VIII 21
The question needs to be refined more in regards to professionals.
If the professional is still active there may be a decent tip towards the professional.
If they were once active and now mostly teach instead of studying the game hardcore that gap might be closed somewhat. Same goes if they're retired. And also pros don't go down in rank ever since the rank is more a description of performance than actual strength. Also consider the concept of "honorary" ranks as well.
often wrote:The question needs to be refined more in regards to professionals.
If the professional is still active there may be a decent tip towards the professional.
If they were once active and now mostly teach instead of studying the game hardcore that gap might be closed somewhat. Same goes if they're retired. And also pros don't go down in rank ever since the rank is more a description of performance than actual strength. Also consider the concept of "honorary" ranks as well.
Then perhaps the only way to find out for sure is to have the amateur play against the professional. If the amateur has played hard and studied harder for a few hours a day, the skill gap should not be too great.
Although, I must add that emotions also play a part. If for the pro there is, say, reputation or money at stake, the pro might be able to win because of a higher level of play under pressure.
zaqxswcde wrote:Now, the issue I see with this thread is that there's too much of a focus on American and European players.
The issue I see is that OP hasn't posted anything in any thread since this one so it's 100% hijacked by what other people think should be the question. While I think the conversation is interesting, I hope we didn't drive away a beginner.
I fear that this is just what has happened - and it breaks my heart
I actually play as blackdog on KGS now. I'm a 3k and about to hit 2k. Sooo close. Anyway, thanks for the comments
