[go]$$Wcm1 Prisoners: W=0, B=0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . O . . O . X X . X . X . . . | $$ | . . X , . . . X O , X O O . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . O . O X . 2 . . X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . O X 2 . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O O . . . . . . 1 3 . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . | $$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . X X O , O . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . . X . . . X X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
I don't think he will ignore these forcing moves! If I can capture these two stones, I have a strong group sitting in front of his territory, which will make it much harder for him to convert it all into points!
Re: 61. Redundant (4k) vs. Zwergesel (3k)
Posted: Sun Jul 04, 2010 12:15 pm
by Redundant
$$Bcm45 Prisoners: W=0, B=0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . O . . O . X X . X . X . . . | $$ | . . X , . . . X O , X O O . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . O . O X . 1 . . X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . O X . 3 . . . . . | $$ | . . X O O . . . . . . O 2 . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . | $$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . X X O , O . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . . X . . . X X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------
[go]$$Wcm46 Prisoners: W=0, B=0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . O . . O . X X . X . X . . . | $$ | . . X , . . . X O , X O O . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . O . O X . X . . X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . O X . X . . . . . | $$ | . . X O O . . . . . . O O . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . 1 O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . | $$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . X X O , O . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . . X . . . X X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
I hope this is a good move. It looks good on paper! Of course there's space to invade, but if he comes in I should be able to get profit out of chasing him and there's a chance that I might even kill him!! What bothers me more is that I leave a cut at L13 with this tenuki and if he chooses to cut now, the fighting will become ugly!!! Here's what I see:
$$Bcm1 Prisoners: W=0, B=0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . O . . O . X X . X . X . . . | $$ | . . X , . . . X O , X O O . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . O . O X . X . . X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . 4 . O X . X . . . . . | $$ | . . X O O . . . . 3 1 O O . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . 5 2 . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . 0 7 6 . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . W O . . . . 9 8 . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . | $$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . X X O , O . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . . X . . . X X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------
[go]$$Bcm1 Prisoners: W=0, B=0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . O . . O . X X . X . X . . . | $$ | . . X , . . . X O , X O O . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . O . O X . X . . X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . 4 . O X . X . . . . . | $$ | . . X O O . . . . 3 1 O O . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . 5 2 . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . 0 7 6 . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . W O . . . . 9 8 . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . | $$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . X X O , O . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . . X . . . X X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Looks horrible, but he's got nowhere to run, so I should be able to kill him before he can catch any of my stones!!!! I can't read it all though, so it's risky!!!!!
Re: 61. Redundant (4k) vs. Zwergesel (3k)
Posted: Sun Jul 04, 2010 3:22 pm
by Redundant
$$Bcm47 Prisoners: W=0, B=0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . O . . O . X X . X . X . . . | $$ | . . X , . . . X O , X O O . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . O . O X . X . . X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . O X . X . . . . . | $$ | . . X O O . . . . . 1 O O . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . O O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . | $$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . X X O , O . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . . X . . . X X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------
[go]$$Bcm47 Prisoners: W=0, B=0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . O . . O . X X . X . X . . . | $$ | . . X , . . . X O , X O O . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . O . O X . X . . X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . O X . X . . . . . | $$ | . . X O O . . . . . 1 O O . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . O O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . | $$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . X X O , O . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . . X . . . X X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
When trying to destroy a moyo, take a friend.
Re: 61. Redundant (4k) vs. Zwergesel (3k)
Posted: Sun Jul 04, 2010 3:32 pm
by Zwergesel
Oh well, here we go. I will take some time on the next move to make sure I can win this fight. If not there's the possibility to just grab territory in the lower left and treat these stones as aji. @DuskEagle: Just for you I didn't use exclamation marks this time.
Re: 61. Redundant (4k) vs. Zwergesel (3k)
Posted: Sun Jul 04, 2010 9:09 pm
by Dusk Eagle
@Zwergesel
Yes!! Thank you!!!
Re: 61. Redundant (4k) vs. Zwergesel (3k)
Posted: Tue Jul 06, 2010 9:00 am
by Zwergesel
$$Wcm48 Prisoners: W=0, B=0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . O . . O . X X . X . X . . . | $$ | . . X , . . . X O , X O O . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . O . O X . X . . X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . O X . X . . . . . | $$ | . . X O O . . . . . X O O . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . O O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . | $$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . X X O , O . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . . X . . . X X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------
[go]$$Wcm1 Prisoners: W=0, B=0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . O . . O . X X . X . X . . . | $$ | . . X , . . . X O , X O O . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . O 4 O X . X . . X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . 7 6 O X . X . . . . . | $$ | . . X O O . . . 5 2 B O O . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . a 3 1 b . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . O O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . | $$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . X X O , O . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . . X . . . X X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
This creates two new cutting points at 'a' and 'b', but 'a' is easier to defend and if he cuts at 'b' I can sacrifice some more. Note that if he plays at then at prevents the capture and we have a capturing race again. He'd be in a much weaker position though and I don't think he can win this race.
Hmm, I still have the option to fight though, I'm going to count again and decide based on that.
Re: 61. Redundant (4k) vs. Zwergesel (3k)
Posted: Tue Jul 06, 2010 10:54 am
by Redundant
$$Bcm49 Prisoners: W=0, B=0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . O . . O . X X . X . X . . . | $$ | . . X , . . . X O , X O O . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . O . O X . X . . X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . O X . X . . . . . | $$ | . . X O O . . . . 1 X O O . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . O O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . | $$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . X X O , O . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . . X . . . X X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------
[go]$$Bcm51 Prisoners: W=0, B=0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . O . . O . X X . X . X . . . | $$ | . . X , . . . X O , X O O . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . O 1 . X . X . . X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . 3 . X . X . . . . . | $$ | . . X O O . . . 2 X X O O . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . O O . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . O O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . | $$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . X X O , O . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . . X . . . X X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
From now on, I'm going to overplay ridiculously to see what it takes to start a fight with him. He's been pretty passive the whole game.
Re: 61. Redundant (4k) vs. Zwergesel (3k)
Posted: Wed Jul 07, 2010 12:03 am
by Numsgil
Redundant wrote:
From now on, I'm going to overplay ridiculously to see what it takes to start a fight with him. He's been pretty passive the whole game.
Not for players:
Seems like black has enough solid territory at this point that white should be the one picking fights. If black plays solidly from here on out, reducing white's moyo from the bottom, he should be able to win no problem. White's going for a large central moyo, but it's just too hard to defend from leaks.
Re: 61. Redundant (4k) vs. Zwergesel (3k)
Posted: Wed Jul 07, 2010 5:34 am
by Shaddy
Numsgil:
I don't think he cares about that. He just wants a fight.
Re: 61. Redundant (4k) vs. Zwergesel (3k)
Posted: Wed Jul 07, 2010 5:36 am
by Zwergesel
$$Wcm54 Prisoners: W=0, B=0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . O . . O . X X . X . X . . . | $$ | . . X , . . . X O , X O O . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . O X . X . X . . X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . X . X . X . . . . . | $$ | . . X O O . . . O X X O O . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . O O . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . O O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . | $$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . X X O , O . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . 1 . X . . . X X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------
[go]$$Wcm54 Prisoners: W=0, B=0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . O . . O . X X . X . X . . . | $$ | . . X , . . . X O , X O O . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . O X . X . X . . X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . X . X . X . . . . . | $$ | . . X O O . . . O X X O O . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . O O . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . O O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . | $$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . X X O , O . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . 1 . X . . . X X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
I'm way behind unless I can take all or at least most of the territory in the lower left, so I'm afraid I can't take the time to connect solidly at J14. If he – again – cuts immediately, I'm planning to do the following:
$$Bcm1 Prisoners: W=0, B=0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . O . . O . X X . X . X . . . | $$ | . . X , . . . X O , X O O . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . O X . X . X . . X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . 2 1 X . X . X . . . . . | $$ | . . X O O . . 4 O X X O O . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . 3 O O . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . 5 . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . O O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . | $$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . X X O , O . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . W . X . . . X X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------
[go]$$Bcm1 Prisoners: W=0, B=0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . O . . O . X X . X . X . . . | $$ | . . X , . . . X O , X O O . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . O X . X . X . . X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . 2 1 X . X . X . . . . . | $$ | . . X O O . . 4 O X X O O . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . 3 O O . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . 5 . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . O O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . | $$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . X X O , O . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . W . X . . . X X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
The two black stones are not easily rescued and I can build a moyo while chasing them. However, I think he'll just reduce the left now. That way he's probably going to win. I'm not satisfied with my opening in this game.
I will respond with 
!
exchange feels like complete aji keshi to me. Zwergesel should reject it.
I will take some time on the next move to make sure I can win this fight.
at 
then 
prevents the capture and we have a capturing race again. He'd be in a much weaker position though and I don't think he can win this race.